AAD's not required but recommended.

[banesanura 1]

Newbie here-

No idea that an AAD isn't required I haven't heard of anyone doing this that I personally know.

Why would some one NOT want to use an AAD?

Am I missing something?

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Simple. I can't afford one at the moment.

[poe62 0]

I know a lot of people who don't use them. They generally open pretty low or just don't care to have one...One of these people is also someone who doesn't have an RSL set up...

For me personally, I jump with one because my mom paid for it. She doesn't understand skydiving well enough to know exactly what the good and bad are with one, but it gave her peace of mind when I told her what it does. I made sure she understood it wasn't a guarantee, but it might help. She at least doesn't start crying every time I go out to the dz now.

~Nikki
http://www.facebook.com/poe62

Irgity Dirgity

[NWFlyer 2]

They are required for you as a student until you have your A license. Some dropzones in the U.S. require them for all jumpers or jumpers up till a certain license level - that is the DZO's decision, nothing to do with USPA at all. Other countries' parachuting associations do require AADs up to a certain license level as well (Australia is one, for example).

However, at most dropzones in the US, once you get your A license, it is your choice whether to jump with one or not. I have jumped without mine for a few jumps, and I turn mine on in the morning and jump like it's not there, but I have made the choice to use one as part of my overall risk management strategy. I hope it never actually needs to do its job.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[banesanura 1]

Okay- so lets money is tight-

would you recommend to rent gear from the dz with cypress or just jumping your own non AAD equipped rig?


How much more risk and I intaking with out one?

As a student should I just rent until I get my own rig with AAD- has any one else made this choice?

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[banesanura 1]

Okay that puts things into a different perspective. (I will be renting gear for a WHILE so it's no biggie)

Does any one know what the % of jumpers who use AAD's and the Non users?

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[NWFlyer 2]

Re: cost - remember, you don't necessarily have to buy a brand-new AAD; if you can find a Cypres 1 with a few years left before it expires, it'll only cost a few hundred dollars (figure about $100/year that it has left). Vigils have also been on the market a few years and used ones are sometimes available as well.

So buying an AAD doesn't have to cost $1200-$1500, which is what the new ones are costing now with the Euro/$$ exchange rate.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[erdnarob 1]

As an answer to your question nothing better than publishing here an excerpt of my long article about THE STATE OF THE SPORT in 2007. You can find the complete article at the GENERAL SKYDIVING DISCUSSIONS item on this forum: Here it is:

<<
Well, after many years of practicing the sport, I’ve finally decided to equip myself with an AAD; could the weight of years be creeping up on me? Have I ever been against wearing an AAD? Not at all, but I’ve always been against it being imposed by anyone, be it skydiving centers, a federation, or a government. Why? Because the financial burden is on the skydiver and nobody’s asked him for his opinion, and for other reasons I’ll go over later. Those who want to make wearing an AAD mandatory should answer this next question: “Would they like it if the Department of Transport made it mandatory for any commercial aircraft to be equipped with an anti-collision system as it’s more and more the case for the big airliners, as a safety measure of course?” The skydivers know that the planes they jump from will very often “skim” the clouds and are therefore at risk of mid-air collisions. Of course such an alarm system could be justified, but at 150,000$ per system, I can’t imagine what centers could afford it. That would probably be the end of our sport.

I’ve met some very active people in the sport who, being finishing students in college or university, did not have an AAD because they didn’t have the money to buy it. They had scraped and scrimped to buy their second-hand rig and were working hard to pay for their jumps.

An ex-rigger, famous in Western US, wrote in SKYDIVING magazine a few years back (Al Freesby) that he expected many new skydivers equipped with an AAD would tend to neglect to maintain their emergency methods skills and would show little interest in the maintenance of their equipment. I’ve seen that happen myself. This situation is supported by the ultra-quick training that the newbies get nowadays, where after the PFF program (about ten jumps in all), in a lot of places, the student is practically left to his own devices. No problem, he’s got an AAD!

The AAD is in itself, as is the tandem jump, a very good thing, but it doesn’t solve every problem and can even create some. It all depends on the user’s state of mind. A senior skydiver like me, even with an AAD, will not change his good habits like the one that consists in strapping myself in a harness every Spring to practice my emergency methods skills with a real drop on a mattress. It’s a whole other story for new skydivers who very often only get a short safety seminar (if they bother attending) at the top of the season. There should be more of those seminars all along the season. But what the use, since jumpers have AADs! In that mindset, wearing the AAD provides a false sense of security. To those who take good care of their equipment and keep up their emergency methods skills, the AAD gives them more confidence and good for them!

The foundations of high-risk sports such as skydiving, mountain climbing, sailing out at sea … are such that those who practice them must have a high degree of technical knowledge and know-how, they have to use the proper equipment and keep up to date. It seems to me that skydiving lags a bit in that perspective. The speeded-up courses, the AADs, the tandem jumps may propel the sport so much that many will want to try it. But too often we must guarantee a maximum of excitement and a minimum of time investment to train the newcomers. Good for the skydiving business, good to popularize the sport, but maybe not so good for the overall competence of each parachutist. Do jumpers with a high level of knowledge and skills find themselves demotivated at times when they see everybody and everyone jump after such quick and often little training? Is it possible to lose one’s motivation when we witness that kind of trivialization of our sport? This is why a serious follow-up must be undertaken with each new divers once they get their Solo or self supervised license. One need only look at the USPA’s basic and recreational skills grids to be convinced. The serious work has only just begun and the skydiving center has a major role to play in motivating and keeping our membership up at this time.
>>>

Well I read that again after one year I wrote it and I am still convinced at 100 %. As I said, an AAD is good provided you don't neglect keeping up with good skydiving skills and rig knowledge and maintenance.
Personnaly, since I have my VIGIL AAD, I do know it works according its designs since it fired twice when it was supposed to do it.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[BillyVance 34]

When I first started out, my first rig did have an AAD, one of those old FXC-12000s. When I downsized and got a new rig, I didn't have an AAD in it. I was at the time very current and jumping nearly every weekend. It wasn't until a good friend died after a mid-air collision that knocked her out on a world-record big way attempt, that I decided to get a Cypres. She chose not to jump with one, and I doubt she could have gotten one into that tiny rig she had if she had wanted to. Not saying it would have saved her as the collision was pretty hard. She was only 5 feet tall and 100+/- lbs, but the guy she hit was over 6 feet tall and 200+ lbs, and HE had a leg brace on afterwards.

Shit happens and you never know when it's gonna come up and bite you. That's why I use one.

I don't use one on CRW jumps but that's a totally different story (and some CRW dogs use them too)

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[SPAWNmaster 0]

I think I'll share some advice with you as well. I have not been in the sport very long and do not claim to be an expert on this matter by any means, however I was once in your position recently.

Do your best to educate yourself on the pros and cons of having an AAD (use the search on DZ.com) and be comfortable with your decision. There are plenty of people who jump without one just as there are plenty of people who jump with one, this should not be a factor in your decision.

I noticed you mention about buying a rig vs. renting. While that's a completely separate issue I see how you're tying that in to the whole AAD issue. It's my opinion that you shouldn't feel added comfort in the sport because of an electrical device that may fail. Rather you should feel satisfied in your decision to use that device in your overall risk-benefit scheme.

As far as renting you may find it to be mad expensive. Renting sport gear from your local "pro shop" (as we have at the ranch) can cost you about $100 a day ON TOP of your jump tickets and other expenses if you plan on making multiple jumps per day (which you will after student status). My regret is not having ordered my rig earlier. During the 13 week wait for the rig I've had to rent and putting in 6-8 jumps a day every other weekend...well you do the math. it's way expensive to rent and the AAD discussion shouldn't be a big factor in when to buy your rig.

also, take advantage of the numerous articles written on this website and on the interwebs.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Okay- so lets money is tight-

would you recommend to rent gear from the dz with cypress or just jumping your own non AAD equipped rig?

With decent credit you'd be spending $9-12 a month on interest to own a brand new one which is 1/3 to 1/2 what many DZs would charge you for rig rental on a single jump

Long-term, using up the time remaining on the Cypres, inspection cycle, and batteries runs under $12/month whether you have an original Cypres 1 (should be less expensive to purchase but has $85 battery replacements) or Cypres 2.

AADs are not that expensive.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Why would some one NOT want to use an AAD?

Malfunctions, which can create danger where there otherwise would be none.

Summary:

In favor of: An AAD can save your life.
Against: An AAD can kill you.

Which is more likely to occur? That's for you to decide.

[shropshire 0]

That's a good point.

One of the problems with an AAD is that you have little or no control over it (once switched on)... As soon as it's in its operating envelope it will fire and you may not be in the right position/location/state for it to put your reserve out. eg getting a 2 out can be un-healthy).

Also, if you are flying wing suit it may not operate at all (are there Wing suit specific devices available?)

I jumped my first rig for a few years, without an AAD but now I have one and always use it - It's down to choice.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[VincentVL. 0]

There really is no excuse that can justify jumping without an AAD. You can bump your head on the door, a teammate, your own knee. You can pass out for no particular reason or because you saw the holy spirit. You can lose altitude awareness. Basically you're fucked if you lose control of the jump.

- But I am le poor
Choose a different sport, jump less, rent or change your priorities.

- I'M A HARDCORE SWOOPER SONBITCH
Buy an Argus.

- Skydiving is all about freedom of choice man. You can't make me the constitution said so.
Grow up.

Please tell me one good reason to jump without an AAD

[strop45 0]

Quote

Summary:

In favor of: An AAD can save your life.
Against: An AAD can kill you.

Which is more likely to occur? That's for you to decide.

Yes, thats the correct question. The problem is that you can apply the same argument to almost any safety device you care to name. Airbags, helmets, reserves....

Since a two out can kill you, one way to remove this risk is to jump without a reserve. Most people would agree that this is more likely to kill you.

With an AAD, there are a relatively low number of saves, but these significantly outnumber the number of deaths that result from the use of an AAD. For a new jumper, say less than 500 jumps, there is little doubt that the use of an AAD reduces their risk of death or serious injury.

In the USA, you get to decide whether to use an AAD or not and whether to wear a helmet on your motorbike or not. Here in New Zealand, the nanny state has decided that all skydivers will use an AAD and all motorbike riders (on public property, i.e. road) will wear helmets. While upsetting those who believe in personal freedom, these laws do help to make people safer (on average).

Blue Skies

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[fallfast69 2]

OH PLEASE...not this again

Jon

[billvon 2,380]

>Why would some one NOT want to use an AAD?

1) The AAD is out being serviced, and the jumper doesn't want to buy/rent a second AAD.
2) The jump is inherently low risk (i.e. a hop and pop.)
3) The jump might be made more dangerous by an AAD (i.e. while doing CRW, or jumping a tertiary.)
4) They feel they don't need one.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

How much more risk and I intaking with out one?

No more or less given a bunch of "what ifs".

When I was a student, we were told about AADs, and that our rigs would have them, but not to rely on them.

AADs have plenty of saves documented world wide. I jump with one, but I know some that don't due to swooping ponds, living near water, personal choice...

As a student, just take your progress one step at a time, and learn about the sport around you.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Chubba 0]

Quote

Other countries' parachuting associations do require AADs up to a certain license level as well (Australia is one, for example).

Yep, "E" License, 500 jumps, straight from the APF website:

Quote

You may jump without an RSL or AAD.

I think 500 jumps is a reasonable level to be able to decide whether or not to have an AAD... A license, definitely not.

I don't know about the RSL though, if I had plenty of altitude I would probably want to go back into freefall... ahh well, 500 jumps, won't be making that decision anytime soon.

[diablopilot 2]

Not all of us feel we need an AAD. For me it's the expense, and maintenance costs. I have 4 rigs, to equip them all would be on the order of $5000.

Here's something to think about, no mater if you decide to use one, or not.

An AAD is just another piece of equipment, and it is susceptible to failure. With that in mind, you should NEVER make a jump thinking "I'll be all right, I have an AAD."

Apply this thought to every skydive you make, and you're on the road to having safer skydives.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Please tell me one good reason to jump without an AAD

I don't want to.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[banesanura 1]

Quote

Quote

Why would some one NOT want to use an AAD?

Malfunctions, which can create danger where there otherwise would be none.

Summary:

In favor of: An AAD can save your life.
Against: An AAD can kill you.

Which is more likely to occur? That's for you to decide.

Um... are there stats on the %

I've

I know I've been trying to pull as much info as possible.

I've been looking into buying a rig....

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Why would some one NOT want to use an AAD?

Which is more likely to occur? That's for you to decide.

Um... are there stats on the %

Nearly zero it's going to kill you. Nearly 100% that it's going to save you if you don't pull because you're having too much fun or get distracted dealing with a high speed malfunction. That happens surprisingly often - I even know an airline captain who'se managed to fire a Cypres.

Cypresses fire when you meet their activation criteria. Adrian Nichols managed to do that under an open canopy (exceed a 78 MPH descent rate) when swooping and died. I can't think of anyone else who was killed by a Cypres.

OTOH, the Cypres has nearly eliminated low/no-pull fatalities. We haven't had any in the US yet this year, just one last year on a wingsuit which wouldn't have been going fast enough to fire an AAD, and a couple in 2006 with people who had no AADs.

The Cypres was introduced in 1991

# of Cypresses vs low/no-pull fatalities
1991 110 14
1992 830 8
1993 3170 7
1994 6490 11
1995 9890 6
1996 14190 6
1997 17990 2
1998 21700 0

[email]

[BillyVance 34]

And of course, if you forget to turn on the cypres and you die because of it...

Yep, it happened at Quincy during the WFFC. I forget which year, but it was a skysurfer.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,380]

Tom Piras was killed after he turned his AAD off and was kicked in freefall. I don't know if it was at Quincy or not. Adrian Nichols was killed when his cypres fired during a swoop. (It was not a failure; the firing parameters were met and it fired.)

So leaving your cypress off _or_ on can kill you, depending on circumstances.