WINGS corduraBOC

[maurice1369 0]

I don't know if they are related in any way but what I do know is that I originally posted about what had happened because my rigger had made a very valid point that the only place on the BOC that really secures the PC in the pouch is the elastic mouth. My rigger had tested the pull strength in cordura vs. spandex and in the end the spandex requires more strength to pull out the PC compared to cordura. I will get the exact details but in the end it only takes about 4 pounds to pull the PC from a cordura BOC compared to the spandex. When it regards freeflying and you are transition numerous times you don't want your PC to ever prematurely release from its pouch.

Now, what had happened to me may have been a freak accident and may never have happened again. All I know is that I want to have full trust in my gear at all times and not have to worry about anything like that happen again. I just want to minimize my risk is all.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

I've been jumping Reflexes with cordura pouches since 1998. 15+ hours of sitflying. No problems. The pull force is lower than a spandex pouch although F111 pilot chutes stay put fine. It's definitely more durable than spandex.

If you wad up a pilot chute it's probably easier to get it stuck than a straight (or tapered) spandex pouch but that's not an issue when you don't use packers and consistently fold your pilot chute in a reasonable way (I like Brian Germain's)

[Lastchance 0]

Can anybody post pics of Brian Germains' method of folding a PC? I would be interested in seeing it.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[siddacious 0]

Quote

Can anybody post pics of Brian Germains' method of folding a PC? I would be interested in seeing it.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php

A dolor netus non dui aliquet, sagittis felis sodales, dolor sociis mauris, vel eu libero cras. Interdum at. Eget habitasse elementum est.

[monkycndo 0]

Or you can go to his video of him explaining it.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[davadikian 0]

I would also like to mention, because it wasnt on the video. When Brian initially showed me the method he also pointed out that if you have a collapsible PC you CANT fold it using this method if it hasnt been cocked. Its just a back-up that has become my routine over the years.

Its been said that even if your PC wasnt cocked it would/should still pull the pin, but...

Again, its whatever makes you comfortable.

[pchapman 261]

I've always wondered how one easily replaces the elastic for the mouth of the Wings Cordura BOC.

I haven't looked at one closely lately, but it doesn't look like it is made for easy replacement. Most seem to last fairly well, but I've seen ones that are stretchier then a decent Spandex BOC, which is a concern when they grip the PC only at the mouth to begin with.

With Spandex BOCs one can just remove the stitches and sew a new BOC on. Modern heavyweight Spandex (or Spandura or whatever) BOCs do last longer than the old thin ones did, so I've done fewer BOC replacements in recent years than I used to.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Quote

I would also like to mention, because it wasnt on the video. When Brian initially showed me the method he also pointed out that if you have a collapsible PC you CANT fold it using this method if it hasnt been cocked. Its just a back-up that has become my routine over the years.

why is this? does it have something to do with how you first pull the center over to the side before "pizza-folding"?

[tdog 0]

I would think twice about a Cordura BOC on any rig I would own.

The only "student" reserve ride I have had with any "student" was a re-currency jump I did for someone with a good handful of jumps. His first jump on new gear. He had an impossible pull because the elastic band in the cordura somehow caught his PC on the way out. I watched him pull the *&^% out of his PC then go to his reserve right in front of me.

On the ground the PC one out of 10 times got caught with "some resistance" where we saw the elastic band turn such that it turned into a "wall of added resistance".

The guy replaced his BOC with spandex right away.

I just personally don't like the design of cordura with an elastic band...

[Lastchance 0]

Thanks for the link. I'll be trying that this weekend.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[davadikian 0]

Quote

why is this? does it have something to do with how you first pull the center over to the side before "pizza-folding"?

yes, when the PC is collapsed the center of the mesh and the zero-P of the PC are right up against each other, this position prevents you from pulling the center out to the edge when folding using this method. Although I dont know how to make pizza...

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Gotcha! thanks for that...confirms i actually know something about the way my gear works

[Chrisky 0]

I digress.

I own a Wings w/ Cordura BOC and Pud handle (so I'm biased) and as long as you pay attention to the rubber band closing the BOC, IMO it is the superior option. Cordura is a very lasting material and I've seen lots of Spandex BOCs that gave me the creeps as they were kind of yelling "I can't hold it any longer!" Seriously - I'd go for a cordura BOC w/ the pud handle anytime again. Zero bridle exposure plus the handle covers the whole mouth of the BOC, nothing moving.

With a hackey bouncing around a Spandex - well, in my book you're more likely in for another go-around than with the cordura pouch.

Check out Brian Germains Famous Pilot Chute Packing Method on how to pack a PC (a) right (way). And pay close attention to the Spandex wear.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[hajnalka 0]

It's true that Cordura is more durable than spandex.

However, many components of a rig are subject to wear & tear and will need refurbishment/replacement over the life of the rig (PC/kill line/bridle, links, main risers, toggle-keepers, BOCs, etc.)

IMO it's better at the outset to think about how the components are secure and will work for you right now: and understand that there WILL be occasional maintenance/rigging work needed on your life-saving equipment over the next several hundred jumps.

Best,
Dawn

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Thank you for the reminder Dawn. Even though I'm still jumping pro-shop gear (should have my brand new rig by next week) it's always good to be reminded to do *complete* gear reviews every so often as parts do wear down and need rigging.

edit:

i guess i was thinking outloud with this post...doesn't really pertain to the topic.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have packed several wings with that BOC.

Its a real bitch to pack. I would not order with that for myself.

[maurice1369 0]

I had originally went with the cordura BOC because it lasts longer and is more durable than spandex. My only concern is can you replace just the elastic mouth or does the whole pouch have to be replaced???

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[erdnarob 1]

Dawn, you just speak as an oracle. You just mention what I find the most important. Durability is one point but being functional is even more imortant. I have jumped my last VECTOR III about 400 times. It was equiped with a spandex pouch which doesn't need to be replaced for say another 200 jumps. What people are complaining about? 500-600 jumps before replacing the Spandex pouch is about what is needed to replace the lines and the kill line. I was right when I say this is maybe a issue of the kind "Fashion versus Function". Guys, (and girls) FUNCTION FIRST, it has to work. Fashion after isn'it?
But for the people who believe there is a problem with a cordura or a spandex pouch, have they thought about a combination of the kind of pouch and the way the pilot chute is packed. That's why Brian Germain wrote a post on how to pack a pilot chute. I invite everybody to watch this video an stick with the method shown on it.
ERDNAROB Rigger since 1977.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[bigway 4]

Will the O.P. Ever post some photos of his loose cordura?
Were any taken before it was removed to send to wings or maybe post here to highlight the issue they have found? It would be very useful.
BIGWAY Chef since 1994

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[maurice1369 0]

I believe my rigger took some photos and even a video testing the pull strength but I will not be able to get then until this weekend. But Dawn is one of the rigger where I jump that saw my BOC before it was removed so you can even ask her

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[bigway 4]

For heavens sake. I have spoken to Dawn and I am not trying to say you are lying or making it up or exagerating. I dont need anybody to vouch for you as I 100% belive you.

The reason I ask for photos is because maybe you had a sudden openning and us other people who have cordura pouches would like to see if your cordura pouch is more loose than ours are or if we could potentially be awaiting the same problem you had. The reson of the request for a photo is not to see if you are telling us the truth or anything, it is simply for a comparisson to see if it is noticably different.

You dont need to get defensive., I am not questioning your original post. I am just worried about my safety.


Disclaimer: I know that a photo is not going to be reliable for this comparisson but i am interested to see if there is a big difference. MAybe a photo will show if there is a big difference for me to be concerned as at the moment I am not even the slightest bit concerned with the cordura pouch on my rig as it is super tight.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[maurice1369 0]

I was not getting defensive I was just saying that as far as technical info about the BOC pouch she would be better to answer your question. I thought the BOC was secure enough and the elastic was good enough but it wasn't until the premature deployment that I did not think something was wrong

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[hajnalka 0]

Sorry; we ARE working on it. I simply don't know if we have any images that will clarify or add anything.

My loft partner has video of Mo's exit, which he just happened to catch prior to videoing a 4-way training jump. It doesn't show much unless you seriously blow up and zoom in on a couple of the frames of his front-flip exit, where you can see the loosely attached hackey catching air as he rotates forward, and about 1/2" of the white PC starting to leave the pouch. Vid's not great quality and our viewing was done on a sophisticated Mac, so not sure it would even translate well via the Internet (we're total novices at video.)

We were just intent at the time at trying to understand Mo's premature.

We'll certainly give Mo that footage this weekend.

Maybe/hopefully some of our experienced/talented videographers will want to step in and make those frames more clear, so they can be shared ....

(If you watch the video real-time, you wouldn't notice a thing.)

Sorry I can't be more helpful right now -

Best,
Dawn

Editing to add:

The tapes holding Mo's hackey to the PC apex were quite loose (more than 1/2" of play on the ground) and I believe this contributed to his premature. Not good to have a handle bouncing around in your relative wind, esp. with radical exits and FF maneuvers. Everyone should be able to tell if they have a loose hackey relative to their PC, and any rigger will be able to fix this, or the hackey attachment tapes can even be hand-tacked hard up inside the PC to make it tight to the apex.
Better yet: get a freefly pud!

[maurice1369 0]

Dawn is completely correct. I had thought that when I had inspected my BOC pouch earlier that day I thought it was supposed to look like that. I had done 2 jumps earlier in the day and I thought it was fine. But, on the 3rd that I found out how wrong I was. But, it could have been avoided to the best of my ability if I had only asked my rigger questions anytime I was unsure

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[maurice1369 0]

well all,
I figured I would put an update to the whole pouch situation. I now have a spandex BOC and I must say that I LOVE IT. I really can't tell that much of a difference but I now am able to freefly without worrying anymore. I understand that I could have another premature opening like I did but I have definitely reduced the risk of that happening.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!