WINGS corduraBOC

[maurice1369 0]

Hello all WINGS owners,

I recently bought a NEW WINGS container and I have put about 75 jumps on it. When I bought it I had went with the cordura BOC option. At the time I had thought it was a good idea until this past Saturday. It was a normal jump out of a CASA and before I jumped I had a friend do a pin check for me and she said it was good. I jumped off the platform did a few front flips and went into a sit. While I was in my SIT I decided to work on transitions. I had went into a front flip and as I was flipping I saw my bridle between my legs and then I had the worst experience of my life. I was going about 180 mph when I had a premature deployment. I was in the saddle at about 7700 according to my altimeter and the worse thing was that I was in a cloud for about 2200 ft not knowing where anyone was or where I was.

I have gone over this whole scenario many times and the only possible reason I can think of and my rigger agrees with me is that since the cordura pouch is inherently loose unlike the tight fit of the spandex the wind had gotten into the pouch and somehow removed the PC. I know me and I know my gear so I know I did not hit anything on the exit due to the fact that there was video of my exit and I always check my gear and the pouch seemed fine but I was sadly mistaken.

I am just writing this post so if there are any WINGS owners out there with a cordura BOC that they replace it with spandex. Because even though I was lucky and had minimal damage to me and my equipment the next person may not be so lucky.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[darkwing 4]

There are certainly other possible explanations than blaming the cordura pouch. Similar things have happened with spandex pouches. Don't think changing the pouch will necessarily make you bomb proof.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

There are certainly other possible explanations than blaming the cordura pouch. Similar things have happened with spandex pouches. Don't think changing the pouch will necessarily make you bomb proof.

You know, I've had a Wings with a codura BOC and have been jumping it for the past 6 years. Never had a premature opening or any other bridle issues. I'm also conscious of my packing, checking handles, etc.

Nothing is bomb proof, but I'm not the only person to have jumped that design for a decent amount of time and jumps with no issues.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NWFlyer 2]

Inherently loose? I find mine inherently tight and I like it that way. I bought the rig used so the original owner chose the cordura pouch, not me, but I have become a big fan of it. 3 years and 330 jumps on this setup now with no issues.

I am conscious of how I fold my pilot chute to ensure that it is folded up long in the pouch so that it won't be too tight, actually.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[sdctlc 0]

I agree with Dave in that I have many years of jumps on my Wings with a cordura BOC sans any issues. There are other possibilities for the problem you had, but if your comfortable with a Spandex BOC go for it! Confidence in your gear is important. Blaming the Wings BOC with so many out there working fine might be wrong though. Could there be an issue with your pouch? Did you compare it to any other wings containers?

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[hajnalka 0]

I'm one of Mo's (OP's) riggers.

I wasn't there when he had his premature, but I saw him hurting afterwards .

It was obvious to me that he'd had a very hard opening when I saw the damage to his risers - major stitching had broken and pulled apart from the C/A insert channel to the back of the riser - up to 2.5 inches - not structural, but pretty dramatic.

I REALLY don't like a Cordura BOC pouch. The elastic mouth might keep the PC in place, but in my opinion I like a well- folded PC to remain well-folded, and with this voluminous loose Cordura pouch that just can't happen.

In addition, the OP had an original mf ZP PC. The hackey handle was quite loosely attached to this PC with a good inch of play. We have video (very poor quality) that seems to show the hackey catching some relative wind and starting to extract the PC right on exit from the CASA before he started doing any radical maneuvers.

I can't claim to know what happened with this premature deployment, but again I really don't like the Cordura pouch ... on any rig ... I just don't think it can "hold" a PC like a spandex pouch can. My opinion.

Note:
If you reach high FF speeds and/or do radical maneuvers, get a freefly pud that tucks into your rig!

There was a lot of discussion 2 PIA's ago about ZP vs F111 PCs, BOCs, and premature deployments. I'm going to go dig up my notes.

Stay safe.
Best,
Dawn

[love2flyhigh 0]

Just switch over to a pull out and ahh ha problem solved. Your PUD is not going to pull that pin if it comes out of place.

[bigway 4]

You guys Keep saying Loose cordura BOC.

I must bring you up on this as I sell Wings containers and I personally let my customers know that I personally like the Cordura BOC.


So eduacte me here please.

You say Loose cordura, I had it on my rig and even after 400-500 jumps it was never loose. it was always a bit of a mission to put it in to be honest because it was so tight.

Are you certain that his BOC is meant to be loose like you say it is?
On my wings rig there was no way in hell you would get the pilot chute out of the cordura boc without some muscle behind it.

Maybe you have a photo of this particular BOC? HAve you asked wings if it is a fault in the manufacturing of it?

Something else, was it made for a certain style of pilot chute, being ZP or f1-11? or size?

IS the pilot chute the pilot chute that was sent out with the purchase of the rig?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[hajnalka 0]

Quote

Something else, was it made for a certain style of pilot chute, being ZP or f1-11? or size?

IS the pilot chute the pilot chute that was sent out with the purchase of the rig?

Standard rig, with all equipment (PC, etc.) made by the mf, and canopies installed/packed by them ... basically a complete rig, sent to this guy by the mf ready to jump.

I'm NOT trying to slam a gear manufacturer - seriously. I just don't like a cordura BOC on any rig, and that's strictly MY opinion.

And I may have been misleading when I said 'loose.' I mean the whole BOC in general, not the elastic opening - specifically I meant the "body" that holds the bulk of the PC, and not the "mouth" from which it's extracted.

A cordura "body" BOC IS loose, and doesn't hold the bulk of the stowed PC well, and I like a spandex pouch much better. The mouth/opening can be tight as anything, but there is nothing in the "body" of a cordura BOC to hold the folded PC in place.

Again, this is ONLY my opinion. I'm not sponsored or affiliated, and don't have any agenda - I just want jumpers to be safe as possible.

At my DZ we just relearned that flopping hackeys and loose BOCs can be dangerous, even on a brand new rig, and I posted in the interest of safety .... the OP did have a VERY hard premature that could have caused injury.

I love secure handles, good bridle protection, ff puds with secure tuck tabs, and tight BOCs. Not knocking any manufacturer. I don't like the cordura BOCs on any rig.

Again, just my opinion.

Peace,
Dawn

[bigway 4]

just asking.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[maurice1369 0]

bigway,

the PC that is with my rig right now is the one that is supposed to be with it. I have only put no more than 75 jumps on the H/C and it might be too loose and it might just be a manufacturing problem. I am not the expert on that issue but all I know is that I got really freaked out when I saw my bridle between my legs when I did my frontflip transition. I may just go with a low profile PUD instead of the hackey but I will see when I pick up my rig. This was by far the freakiest thing that has ever happened to me so I am trying to minimize any chances of this happening. Whatever the case may be, all I know is that the situation and outcome could have been a whole lot worse than what it WAS.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[bigway 4]

Sure. it could have been worse.

Sure you have already but have you gone over in your mind how you exioted or if anything could of tugged on it on the way out?

More than likely your riggers explanation was correct with the wind grabbing it. I just do not see that happenning on my wings rig ever as it would not be possible as it is super tight.

Glad you are ok. Photos of the BOC with your PC in it would be great.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

You guys Keep saying Loose cordura BOC.

Although I jump entirely different gear (Vector2 with a spandex BOC), I do observe that BOC's sometimes feel looser if the container is packed more loosely - i.e. a 150 versus a 170 in your main tray. Extremely minor, but I noticed this during a demo of a PD143 Optmium reserve, it packs much looser than my regular Sabre 170 piece of fabric. Even with a spandex BOC. It may only be a few percent looser (PC still quite secure), but I can only imagine the difference is greater with a Cordura BOC.

Have anyone in this thread considered the variable of how tight the main is packed into its tray, in influencing the tightness of a Cordura BOC?

Just like how an overstuffed tote bag: The outer pockets are harder to fill, than if the tote bag was empty or loosely packed. Or the front pocket of an overstuffed school backpack. Same principle.

[davadikian 0]

First off, sorry about the premature that really sucks! Ive never had one but I understand they are quite violent.

I had the cordura BOC on my first Wings (i bought used). My second Wings rig (custom) I went with spandex because that was the norm, both functioned properly, were adequately tight, and I no problems. However, I must say on my next rig I will go back to cordura, just seemed a little more durable.

Maybe there was an error in the manufacturing of yours and the elastic isnt tight enough, wind on the hackey could cause it to osculate and it could work the PC out (talking to SRI could be helpful). A lot (not all) of the premature dep Ive seen (video) started with either the rig not having adequate bridle protection (which Wings does have) or the bridle wasnt securely routed within the protection, packing error. Wind catches the bridle and pulls the PC out. Not insinuating you made a mistake but it does happen sometimes.

Then there are always the "freak" accidents... There are no guarantees.

*my recent experience*
I had just purchased new risers, my rig was already packed so I just opened things up but kept the main in the d-bag and slowly swapped the attachments over and repacked, Ive done this before with no problems. When I got to the DZ I was ready but my wife had to pack, while she was packing I figured what the heck Ill pull my canopy and repack "it cant hurt", my wife scoffed at my repacking assuming everything was rigged properly. Turns out I accidentally routed one brake line around the FRONT and rear risers and the other around the rear riser twice. Almost certain cutaway on my canopy, maybe worse if I had an accidental low break-off/deployment... I have no idea how this happened. Point is I was sure I had taken the time to route everything correctly, I was sure. Guess I was wrong. My wife and I both learned a lesson that day.

Ultimately if you and your rigger feel spandex is a better option and you would feel more comfortable with it then it should be an easy fix.

Years ago Brian Germain showed me how to fold and pack a PC that will prevent the PC "balling up" in the BOC, and cant be folded if the PC isnt cocked, a safeguard that totally makes sense to me and I always use. When I show it to someone who hasnt seen it they look at me like I have six heads. I guess its whatever youre comfortable with.

[koppel 3]

not sure if this is much help to you or not but....

with the Freefly PUD option from Sunrise there used to be the possibility of it being a little loose if the canopy wa smaller than originally intended for the container. This has been solved by a special pocket for the pud in the Cordura BOC (not sure if they do this on the spandex as everyone i sell to gets the Cordura) that eliminates this problem.

Even with a pud being knocked out by one means or another there would be very little chance of the PC being extracted by wind forces on the pud. I have nearly 2000 jumps on Wings containers and was so impressed by them I became a dealer. I have never seen that kind of problem from the Cordura BOC. Packing the PC can be a contributing factor I imagine however.

hope you solve the reason and please let us all know when it is found.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[riggerrob 558]

I may just go with a low profile PUD instead of the hackey ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!
Call me old-school, but every time I see a hacky sack, I get the urge to kick it!

[maurice1369 0]

Honestly,


I may just be over reacting and this may just be one of those freak situations that there may not be just one explanation for. I go through my packing procedure in my head and I see myself properly routing the bridle and folding the PC. I have that verified by talking to the person I asked to give me a pin check.She said all was fine. As far as me hitting anything on the way out the plane. Well that is impossible. I say that because I saw video of my exit and I went straight out with no obstruction whatsoever. Hey, I will chalk it up to a freak happening and just do what I think is in my best interest. All of you that say you have the cordura BOC and have had no problems well then congrats. I also may have gotten a bad BOC from the manufacturer when they made it. That is also a possibility.


So in conclusion, there are way too many possibilities to go over in my head so I am going to select the best course of action and just hope nothing like this happens again because next time I will not be so lucky.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[980 0]

I too have a Wings with the Cordura BOC and I am very happy with it.

You may want to pay extra attention to how you pack your PC and put it in the pouch.

Try to get as much of the bulk of the PC away from the mouth of the BOC.

Make very sure there is no PC fabric under the elasticated part of the BOC mouth.

Have your hackey as close to the mouth as possible, the tape connecting the hackey to the PC should be the only thing under the elasticated mouth of the BOC and the rest of the PC bulk as deep into the pouch as you can get it.

Also, try and fold the PC to be short and fat, not long and thin.

If you are not already packing your PC like this (and doesn't sound like you are), give this a try on the ground and compare the results of some tests on the ground.

Hope you find that helpful.

cya
sam

[maurice1369 0]

well,

if I still had a cordura BOC I sure would try that but my cordura BOC was replaced with spandex on Sunday.

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[koppel 3]

end of the day, your the one jumping that gear. You have to feel that you can trust the gear. If the Spandex gives you that confidence then well done and good job on your part.

Looking after your gear is the best prevention.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[TrickyDicky 0]

I have a wings with a cordura BOC and its always good at keeping the pilot chute in, and on 1 occasion too good so I was on reserve.

Personally, I dont think Im gonna get another cordura pouch if I get a wings again. IMO, a badly packed pilot chute is less likely to come out of a cordura pouch. And spandex works great on everyone elses rig. I think the cordorua pouch is a solution to a problem that doesnt really exist, like the mini-force 3-rings on aerodyne icons.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[bigway 4]

You dont think the mini force 3 ring system is just because of Bill Booths patent? Thats what i always would have thought.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi bigway,

That patent has long since expired.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Do you really think he ever enforced it?

[erdnarob 1]

I was in Florida 5 weeks ago and on one jump (a 10 way) a friend of mine with a WINGS container had a very strange incident. When he threw away his pilot chute, the hackey sort of slipped away from his hand. Incredibely the bridle came between his legs and he got his parachute deployment that way. The result was a broken line and a long longitudinal tear on the cell corresponding to that line. He managed anyway to land after seeing that his canopy (Nitron 134) was behaving almost normally. But the deployment bag had hit his knee and right now he is still limping and does physiotherapy (ligament problem). His jumpsuit and leg skin have been cut by probably the line which broke. I just wonder if there is a relation between the discussed subject here and that incident.
I agree with HAJNALKA (DAWN), I prefer spandex pouch since the whole body of the pilot chute is kept tight not only the mouth of the pouch when made of cordura. It seems to me that this subject is one of the kind: Fashion versus Function. What do you guys think?

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Quote

I was in Florida 5 weeks ago and on one jump (a 10 way) a friend of mine with a WINGS container had a very strange incident. When he threw away his pilot chute, the hackey sort of slipped away from his hand. Incredibely the bridle came between his legs and he got his parachute deployment that way. The result was a broken line and a long longitudinal tear on the cell corresponding to that line. He managed anyway to land after seeing that his canopy (Nitron 134) was behaving almost normally. But the deployment bag had hit his knee and right now he is still limping and does physiotherapy (ligament problem). His jumpsuit and leg skin have been cut by probably the line which broke. I just wonder if there is a relation between the discussed subject here and that incident.
I agree with HAJNALKA (DAWN), I prefer spandex pouch since the whole body of the pilot chute is kept tight not only the mouth of the pouch when made of cordura. It seems to me that this subject is one of the kind: Fashion versus Function. What do you guys think?

Interesting! Personally, I got the cordura boc on my wings because I heard that spandex needs to be replaced more often and cordura is pretty durable. As a lowtime jumper I wasn't aware of this being a fashion or trend sort of thing.