phoenixlpr 0 #1 May 4, 2008 Mystery of bag lock? Can a "break fire" or an incorrectly stowed brake cause bag log? I have not seen the gear after pick up thoroughly, but it has been told to be a bag lock because either one side has not been set for deployment or stowed incorrectly leaving the guide ring out and using just the elastic "keeper". Any thoughts? Sad to see junior jumpers packing like defined in the training program without knowing which steps are cosmetics and which should be taken really seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPAWNmaster 0 #2 May 4, 2008 im no expert so this is only my thoughts. i can't see how a brake fire could contribute to a bag lock seeing as how brake lines are also stowed with suspension lines when closing the d-bag. even if there wasn't tension on the bottom end of the brake lines (as in a brake fire) to pull out of the stows, the other lines would most likely come out pulling all the other lines with it. or even if not, the elastic wouldn't be tight enough to contain just a few break lines if the other lines have released from the stow. does this make sense? curious what more experienced jumpers think... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 May 4, 2008 Quoteeven if there wasn't tension on the bottom end of the brake lines (as in a brake fire) to pull out of the stows, the other lines would most likely come out pulling all the other lines with it. or even if not, the elastic wouldn't be tight enough to contain just a few break lines if the other lines have released from the stow. Remember bag lock: d-bag did not open, because of the mess of the lines... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #4 May 4, 2008 QuoteRemember bag lock: d-bag did not open, because of the mess of the lines... Sorry, I'm not buying it... the lines would have to be tangled around the bag to keep it from opening. If the pilot chute is working properly I don't see the lines getting wrapped around the d-bag like that. A more realistic cause of bag lock would be the stows being too tight, or the bight of line being too long.The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #5 May 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteRemember bag lock: d-bag did not open, because of the mess of the lines... Sorry, I'm not buying it... the lines would have to be tangled around the bag to keep it from opening. If the pilot chute is working properly I don't see the lines getting wrapped around the d-bag like that. A more realistic cause of bag lock would be the stows being too tight, or the bight of line being too long. The last bag lock I saw was the result of the left side lines tied up because of a floating toggle. The bag towed by that set of lines; there was enough slack in the right side lines that they stayed in the locking stows. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #6 May 5, 2008 I think by the time the bag gets to the ground it may be tough to know exactly what happened first. If the brakes were not set then there is a fair amount of slack on that steering line. If the lines were subsequently stowed in a sloppy fashion I could see it causing a loop that then locks a bight in place causing baglock. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #7 May 5, 2008 QuoteI think by the time the bag gets to the ground it may be tough to know exactly what happened first. If the brakes were not set then there is a fair amount of slack on that steering line. If the lines were subsequently stowed in a sloppy fashion I could see it causing a loop that then locks a bight in place causing baglock. -Michael The student's brakes were set properly. The riser cover opened during freefall maneuvers, the toggle released and floated above the jumper. I figured it was going to be a malfunction anyway, so why not sooner rather than later, and gave the pull signal at about 7000 feet. My direct observation of the bag lock as it occurred was confirmed by the condition of bag and lines when they were recovered. As to sloppy stows leading to a locked bight, I am looking forward (perhaps in the next post or two!) to hearing from someone who has personal knowledge of such a thing happening. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #8 May 5, 2008 QuoteMystery of bag lock? Can a "break fire" or an incorrectly stowed brake cause bag log? Quite possibly. When we stow that group of lines (bight) we hold in our hand we assume that it will unstow the same way but in reverse. If a brake has come unstowed, that steering line will be slack and will not be unstowing (pulling) with the rest of the lines. As an additional note, I recall a bag lock on a student that pulled while leaning way over to one side, which caused the lines from one riser to be slack while the lines from the other side were under tension. QuoteSad to see junior jumpers packing like defined in the training program without knowing which steps are cosmetics and which should be taken really seriously. That is pretty much the state of modern skydiving now isn't it? Any student that asks too many questions is told to not worry about it. Especially questions the instructor can't answer properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #9 May 5, 2008 Back when freeflying was new. and 'freefly friendly' was a concept that didn't exist, I had at least a dozen toggles out in freefall, and none ever lead to a bag lock, or even a mal. A few led to a line twist or two, but that's about it. All were on 120 or 107 Sabres or Stilettos. I can see a toggle out being a contributing factor, but I would suspect there were other factors as well, and the first one that comes to mind is the line stows. Big bights that can overlap one another, or a four grommet D-bag with locking sotws that can overlap might be something to think about. This was a student? On a student rig? I wouldn't be surpirsed to hear that a packer took a few 'shortcuts' on a student rig. Bigger bights use up more line, and lead to fewer line stows overall, and save a little time on a pack job. Again, these are just things to consider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 May 6, 2008 Quote This was a student? On a student rig? I wouldn't be surpirsed to hear that a packer took a few 'shortcuts' on a student rig. Bigger bights use up more line, and lead to fewer line stows overall, and save a little time on a pack job. Negative. Bright new Wings H/C, junior jumper with moderate packing skills, she was packing really slow and at least tried to be neat, packed like in da book. You got it right it was inside a a four grommet D-bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 May 6, 2008 QuoteBright new Wings H/C, Brand new, and a riser cover came open and toggle released? That doesn't sound like a Wings to me. Was the pack job supervised, or did the jr jumper indicate is was 'by the book'? Also, is the canopy brand new as well? How does it fit into the D-bag? Still sounds like a packing error between the new jumper and new rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 May 6, 2008 Quote Brand new, and a riser cover came open and toggle released? That doesn't sound like a Wings to me. Trust me it was a Wings. Quote Was the pack job supervised, or did the jr jumper indicate is was 'by the book'? She is licensed jumper, she can pack for herself. It takes about 20-30+ minutes of fight for her, but she wants to be perfect anyway.... Quote Also, is the canopy brand new as well? How does it fit into the D-bag? It fits, although it hard get it there with her skill level... Std pro-pack in use, Quote Still sounds like a packing error between the new jumper and new rig. Most likely, but I do not believe that a break fire can cause bag lock... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
