I finally decided to downsize

[JeepDiver 0]

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Nice to know you keep making light of this thread jeep diver.....

I replied in kind with two video clips of swoops not gone bad xenaswampjumper, You broke your leg under a lightly loaded canopy. A friend of mine broke her femur under a lightly loaded canopy 2 weeks ago at Zhills.

Why should this thread be deleted? I am not trolling, pulling anyones leg or doing this for giggles.

I wasn't making light of this entire thread, I can't debate 25 people or compare myself to competitors of a swoop competition that chowed the pond.

A 16 year old with a learners permit would more than likely crash a Ferrari. A 42 year old adult knows how to drive.

There is a difference between landing a canopy and doing high performance landings under the very same wing.

...as for skybytch's comment. I am not scared to land this canopy in no winds.... and I don't recall saying scared. I said my concern level was slightly elevated.

As for billvons rebuke

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It is always best to jump a new canopy when winds are high and gusty; that adds to the excitement factor and prevents boredom

That is what it is always like where I jump 5 months out of the year, it is normal conditions.

as for the jumpers with fewer jumps than I; don't do what I do.

I wanted advice, I got it. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply with their concerns. I am in no rush.

[JeepDiver 0]

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Glad you made one person think about it. The guy in this thread might be hopeless He needs to check out general forum i think it is 1.333 @140 jumps the guy spun up his canopy at low altitude, but wait that would never happen to this guy

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2712145;#2712145

I watched the video yesterday, personally I remember mine very well.

[xenaswampjumper 0]

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replied in kind with two video clips of swoops not gone bad xenaswampjumper, You broke your leg under a lightly loaded canopy. A friend of mine broke her femur under a lightly loaded canopy 2 weeks ago at Zhills.

Those two incidents had less to do with lightly loaded canopies and almost everything to do with two people that had NO BUSINESS being in the sky.......had I listened to others advice......I would not have broken my leg and your other friend should not have been in the air that day, the weather was bad and turbulent.......stupid hurts

edited to add that my canopy loading that day was slightly more than 1:1, so I would not consider that too lightly loaded and I am not sure exactly on her's, but the winds were up and so was the turbulence and the jump numbers low on both days......I didn't heed the advice given to me....I do now..............

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates....
In skydiving, the only thing that stops you is the ground..............
PMS# 472 Muff #3863 TPM#95

[Baksteen 84]

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A 16 year old with a learners permit would more than likely crash a Ferrari. A 42 year old adult knows how to drive.

There is a difference between landing a canopy and doing high performance landings under the very same wing.

I hate numbers.

statistically you would be correct.
However, I am 27 but have no driver's licence. Therefore, those statistics don't apply to me.
Should I decide to get it after all, I might be wise to stick with the Ford Escort a little while longer, even though the statistics suggest that I will probably be OK with the Ferrari.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[format 0]

It's nurishing your sharp&quick&proper mind we're all dealing with.
Do nurish it and we'll discuss it some rainy day, relaxed with mutual pleasure.

Shoelace? Heh, I did it over 15000 times!
So I'm an shoelace expert? (some did it sooner, I prefferre to learn it from)

do read my profile and I dare you to discard significance of my opinion

What goes around, comes later.

[skybytch 259]

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There is a difference between landing a canopy and doing high performance landings under the very same wing.

That's what my buddy Jim said when we told him that going to a Katana 170 at 1.5 might not be the best idea considering that he had been jumping a tapered 9 cell 210 very conservatively for the past 1100+ jumps. But he chose to listen to those who told him he'd be just fine under the Katana since he planned to fly it conservatively too.

His landings weren't pretty on the Katana, but he was walking away. Until he hit a bit of turbulence on a trip at Perris and the canopy did something strange and he made a small mistake and... well... his orthopedic surgeon is now suggesting that he not skydive anymore.

He'd have walked away if he'd been under his 210.

Of course, nothing this bad would ever happen to you...

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I am not scared to land this canopy in no winds.... and I don't recall saying scared. I said my concern level was slightly elevated.

What you said was -

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I may not have jumped it if there were no winds.

Reads more like "scared" than like a "slightly higher concern level." Semantics. But then again, you're a guy, nobody would expect you to admit that you might be scared of it.

[beowulf 1]

yah know I was really on the fence about this thread. I wasn't sure if you were serious or this was just a joke. Now I think you are serious. Hmm from what you have written it looks like you are going to do what you want to do and ignore all the good advice to not downsize so quickly. Good luck.

[MajorDad 0]

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Glad you made one person think about it. The guy in this thread might be hopeless He needs to check out general forum i think it is 1.333 @140 jumps the guy spun up his canopy at low altitude, but wait that would never happen to this guy

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2712145;#2712145
I watched the video yesterday, personally I remember mine very well.

I watched the video of the other guy today (http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=a652x) and it was very telling as to the problem people have when they downsize too quicky and dont listen. The other jumper was jumping a Sabre 2 150 and induced his own malfunction by improper toggle inputs and ended up cutting away. From his description of the incident it was obvious that he did not fully appreciate his own contribution to the line twists.

Most of the serious injuries and fatalities under perfectly inflated canopies are the turns too close to the ground (i.e. winds not level for landing). If you dont know how to fly a pattern or know how to land in an area without consistently overshooting or undershooting you will one day find yourself turning to avoid obstacles. I've known people who died because they couldn't.

Downsizing like you are talking about is a real bad idea. Dont die Skydiving.

Regards,

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[billvon 2,394]

>There is a difference between landing a canopy and doing
>high performance landings under the very same wing.

Yes. The jumper who is landing the canopy, being very careful and landing it straight in "to be safe", does not know how to fly the canopy. He's getting it to the ground, not flying it. He will be OK as long as nothing ever goes wrong.

>I wanted advice, I got it.

Glad you heard what you wanted.

[DougH 270]

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A 16 year old with a learners permit would more than likely crash a Ferrari. A 42 year old adult knows how to drive.

A 42 year old in your example would have 26 years of driving experince, or at least 26 more years of maturity.

Since you have low jump numbers, and maturity doesn't apply to a knee jerk reaction in turbulence, or when some on cuts you off on final, I will have to say that your anology doesn't mean much.

Not that I care, fly what ever you want. I make plenty of stupid decisions, but I am not going to ask about them on the internet.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Madison 0]

When it comes to downsizing:

If anyone you ask says you shouldn't be downsizing, or anyone approaches you and says you shouldn't be downsizing,
then you shouldn't be downsizing. Get it?

That's all you needed to know, so don't yet.

It's a shame that some people are really reading this to learn, and you are being "that guy" that no skydiver should be.

Please just knock this shit off, as you're being an extremely poor example to students and exp. jumpers alike.


Blue Skies all the same
April

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

[Fast 0]

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When it comes to downsizing:

If anyone you ask says you shouldn't be downsizing, or anyone approaches you and says you shouldn't be downsizing,
then you shouldn't be downsizing. Get it?

That's all you needed to know, so don't yet.

It's a shame that some people are really reading this to learn, and you are being "that guy" that no skydiver should be.

Please just knock this shit off, as you're being an extremely poor example to students and exp. jumpers alike.


Blue Skies all the same
April

While I haven't really come out and taken an opinion on this thread, I just don't think what you are saying is true. If the preponderance of people you know, at your dz, think that downsizing is a bad idea, then it probably is. There are a lot of people out there who think that any type of downsizing is bad no matter what. Some of them can be pretty vocal about it too.

This stuff should be common sense, but the "cool" factor makes it hard for people to be smart about it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[agent_lead 0]

i recently downsized from a safire 190 to a katana 170..at first i wasnt sure about it but i had several highly respected jumpers at my dz saying that it was about that time for me..

well i have put about 20 jumps on it and i love it..ive landed it flawlessly in light winds..no winds..strong winds..slight downwinds..tight spots..really trying to run the gamut of situations on landing..before making any high performance attempts..but i have also vowed to do only hop n pops untill mid june..this is because id much rather be in the sky alone for the first 70 or so jumps so i can get SOME taste of how she handles without being in a pattern with 23 other canopies before im actually ready to be..


i love the new canopy and i realized very quickly that it was not the same in any way as the safire, and that bad shit can happen..fast..

i hate to sound so cliched but i will be flying it conservatively for about 100-150 jumps and then im gonna start getting a little more aggressive with it gradually..

i really just want to make sure that im not going to endanger any of my friends up there...im taking canopy flight training from some of the best pilots at my dz..and im learning alot..

it feels good to learn and conquer a new beast...just dont let the beast conquer you...

that being said...the jump your looking to make is a much larger jump then i made..i think you should really do something in between for a bunch of jumps first...and do not put your friends in danger...you should be doing hop n pops exclusively for some time if your going to make that jump in canopy size/planform..

this is just my personal opinion on things..im no expert..

-agent

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[superwoman8433 0]

I am no expert but I live with one who didn't let me downsize until my canopy was holding me back. IMO, for what it is worth, I have always followed the advice of my boyfriend who has had TOO MANY friends go in, in the last 19 years. YOU SHOULD NEVER DOWNSIZE, Until the current canopy your on is holding you back.

With that said, it sounded like you needed to downsize, but not planforms also. One thing I have learned about downsizing and changing planforms is that size and shape has EVERYTHING to do with response time. Things happen a hell of a lot quicker on a 129 then they would on 210. Are you fully prepared for that? You still haven't answered the question on what you would do if someone cuts you off on final or you are forced to make a low turn to avoid another canopy........

Going on with what Lisa said (skybytch), Jim is a perfect example...He had every intent to fly conservatively but he encountered one small thing and reacted and now has gone through several surguries etc.

Your asking advice on how to safely downsize and everyone before me has said it.......Take a smaller step for your sake and the sake of your fellow jumpers in the air

Edited to change platform to planform, I get excited and start typing to fast, I guess, thanks pilot

[pilot-one 0]

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With that said, it sounded like you needed to downsize, but not platforms also

I think you meant to say planforms.

[DocPop 1]

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I am no expert but I live with one who didn't let me downsize until my canopy was holding me back.

Was this expert OK with you having a smaller reserve than your main?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[superwoman8433 0]

Where did I EVER say my reserve was smaller than my main? I have downsized 2 times. First from a 190 to a 170 and second from a 170 to a 150. Both times downsizing from a Sabre2. I have always had a 176 reserve. Where did this question come from???

Edited to add: Why would I downsize on my reserve and not my main??????

[Lindsey 0]

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Where did I EVER say my reserve was smaller than my main? I have downsized 2 times. First from a 190 to a 170 and second from a 170 to a 150. Both times downsizing from a Sabre2. I have always had a 176 reserve. Where did this question come from???

Edited to add: Why would I downsize on my reserve and not my main??????

The question comes from information in your profile, I'd imagine.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[skybytch 259]

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Was this expert OK with you having a smaller reserve than your main?

Why wouldn't he be?

If you're confident that you can safely land whatever size reserve in a worst case situation, then it's probably a reasonably sized reserve for you. Note that by safely land I mean "land without hurting yourself," not "land without getting dirty."

Your main is what you intend to land with on every jump. It should be sized so that you can land standing up (nearly) every time.

To some extent, the size of the main matters too. My 143 reserve with my old 170 main was not unreasonable for me. A 106 reserve with a 135 main would be unreasonable for me - when/if I go to a 135 I'll stick with my 143 reserve.

[superwoman8433 0]

Sorry, I went from a 176 to an optimium 143

[beowulf 1]

PD doesn't make a 150 sqft reserve. The 143 is as as close as they get to a 150 and pretty much flys the same as any 150sqft reserve. I wouldn't consider that to be smaller then a 150 sqft main.

[DocPop 1]

I realise that the short nature of my post may have come across as aggressive and accusatory, for which I apologise. I have very low jump numbers and have not earned the right to be an asshole yet! My intention was to learn from someone who, apparently, has had good advice on downsizing.

My understanding is that it is generally accepted that one should jump a reserve which is larger than the main. The reasoning for this is that it provides an extra margin of error (by virtue of the lower wing loading) which is likely to result in a safer landing when piloted by a person whose judgement may be impaired from having just been through the extremely stressful event of a cutaway.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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PD doesn't make a 150 sqft reserve. The 143 is as as close as they get to a 150 and pretty much flys the same as any 150sqft reserve. I wouldn't consider that to be smaller then a 150 sqft main.

The samples measured by PIA ranged from 148 to 154 square feet.

[superwoman8433 0]

I did make a mistake and forgot that I did just downsized my reserve. I downsized my reserve because a 176 is to big for me. But my boyfriend, the expert, made me stay on that 176 for a while when I downsized to the 150. Now that I am TOTALLY comfortable with the 150, he said it is better to have a 143 because of size and volume.

It is better in size because it compares to what I am comfortable flying now. He made a great point to say that, say I still had the 176 and I was flying my 150 and shit happens..... all of a sudden I have 2 canopies out. I would be in better shape if they are relatively the same size. Think about it...What do you think would happen if you went into a downplane with a 176 and a 150? But this is worse, worse case scenio. Generally people will keep their reserve size as close to their main. Since PD doesn't make a 150, I have the 143. But as someone stated the 143 reserve ranges in size by a few square feet. Also, you will find that a 120 by PD is not the same size as a 120 Tempo. From what I understand, correct me if I am wrong everyone, PD reserves pack bigger than competitors reserves that is because PD measures differently then Tempo (sorry I don't know who makes Tempos) a PD 113 packs similar to a 120 Tempo.

BUT, when I downsize to 135 and 120, I will stay on my 143 optimum because it packs like a 126.

[billvon 2,394]

>Think about it...What do you think would happen if you went into
>a downplane with a 176 and a 150?

It would be slower than a downplane with a 143 and a 150.