What Can Cause a Pilot Chute in Tow?

[fpritchett64 0]

Hi

After some discussion in the Incidents Forum on a recent fatality it got me to thinking, what all can cause a pc in tow, and can't this easily be prevented?

I know some of the most common causes may be a bridle misrouted, closing loop maybe too tight or the container not closed in the correct order...with of course the bridle being misrouted in the closing pocess. All of these seem to be pretty easy to prevent.

What else can cause a pilot chute in tow? It just seems that this mal can be almost 100% preventable.

[AggieDave 6]

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What else can cause a pilot chute in tow?

A collapsed PC.

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It just seems that this mal can be almost 100% preventable.

For all practical purposes, yes. Check your gear before you put it on. Have a buddy check it too. If you don't understand the gear well enough to check it, have an instructor and/or a rigger show you how to do it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[fpritchett64 0]

I also know that an uncocked pilot chute (again almost 100% preventable with a good packing routine) could possible cause a PC in tow, but then again..at terminal, wouldn't that at the bare minimum just cause a baglock? I know this would still be a high speed mal, but I think would be safer than a PC in tow since you should be able to get a clean cutaway from this type of mal

[fpritchett64 0]

Sorry Aggiedave, made my second post before I saw yours, I was thinking that as well, just forgot to include it

[AggieDave 6]

No worries. You're thinking "out loud." That's not a bad thing.

A collapsed PC can cause a very slow opening (from throw to being sat up), or it won't extract the bag from the container or it won't overcome the force of the locking stows. So your answer is "yes and no." It depends on the size of the PC, the locking stows, the weight of the canopy, the tightness of the bag in the container, what you had for lunch and if you farted in the plane.

Some people have had PC in tows fall out of the main pack tray after deploying the reserve because the tension on the container was released. Only to end up with two out or a variety of other scenarios that I've seen and heard about (main pulling out and the risers releasing because they cut away, the bag falling between their legs and gathering it up in their lap, etc).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnDeere 0]

I also know that an uncocked pilot chute

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Not just that but i have a hackey and after releasing it the hackey blew up in between the straps at bottom of pilot chute where the bridel connects. When i got down (with main and pin still in place), the pilot chute was still cocked. The pilot chute would not inflate due to the hackey being through the connecting point.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[fpritchett64 0]

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No worries. You're thinking "out loud." That's not a bad thing.

A collapsed PC can cause a very slow opening (from throw to being sat up), or it won't extract the bag from the container or it won't overcome the force of the locking stows. So your answer is "yes and no."

So, here we have a collapsed pilot chute causing the PC in tow, something that attention to detail on the ground can prevent. My question here though, once it clears the containers and pulls the risers out, doesn't it now either turn into either a bag lock if it goes no farther, or full inflation and a good canopy above your head if nothing else is wrong?

It depends on the size of the PC, the locking stows, the weight of the canopy, the tightness of the bag in the container, what you had for lunch and if you farted in the plane.

Here, it seems like, if your bag is too tight in the container, you either need a container that the bag can fit in properly, or a smaller canopy for that container, which ever is safer for the jumper and experience level? Or, if it's because of the closing loop being too tight, lengthen it up..right?


Some people have had PC in tows fall out of the main pack tray after deploying the reserve because the tension on the container was released. Only to end up with two out or a variety of other scenarios that I've seen and heard about (main pulling out and the risers releasing because they cut away, the bag falling between their legs and gathering it up in their lap, etc).

Again, it seems here from what you're describing, can be prevented with the correct combination of gear, or paying more attention to your gear...and, if the tension was too tight, again due to the closing loop, make it longer. IMHO, if it takes 2 people, 4 feet and 4 hands to close a container, the loop is too tight

Am I not seeing the big picture, or is it more complicated than what I see, it just seems that this mal can be soo easily prevented and so many lives saved.

[fpritchett64 0]

So, this I can see as maybe not being preventable, maybe having a little more control of the pc on throw out, maybe not, I don't have enough experience to really give my opinion, but if it can't be preventable, then that is only one scenerio with a reasonable excuse so far.

[JohnDeere 0]

I dont know the exact cuase, but i do know that most PCIT's can be preveted with out a sweat. I have talked to many experienced jumpers and riggers that dont know what cuases what happend to me. I have had some say it is very rare, but what happened to me is why some people wont jump with a hackey or a free fly pud. Another said it may have to do with the weight of them. The same guy said that he has never seen it happen to a pilot chute with a PVC type handle.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[fcajump 153]

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Hi

After some discussion in the Incidents Forum on a recent fatality it got me to thinking, what all can cause a pc in tow, and can't this easily be prevented?

I know some of the most common causes may be a bridle misrouted, closing loop maybe too tight or the container not closed in the correct order...with of course the bridle being misrouted in the closing pocess. All of these seem to be pretty easy to prevent.

What else can cause a pilot chute in tow? It just seems that this mal can be almost 100% preventable.

Mis-routed Belly-Band!!! (ask an OLD-timer)

Also -
worn-out PC (old enough not to generate the needed drag)

broken PC center lines (not the kill line) don't know if this would necessarily cause PCIT, but could

Mr. Booth, you invented the dang thing... you have anything to add??

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[pchapman 261]

One cause is the PC getting knotted closed, if the bridle entangles with it.

That's similar to the example given about the handle getting caught up in the base of the PC. A knot could be from a bad throw, bad packing, or even just very bad luck due to the vagaries of airflow and parachute inflation.

Attached is a photo of a PC as we found it after someone came down under his reserve. The bridle wrapping around the handle kept the handle below the rest of the PC, keeping it from effectively inflating.

EDIT:
Note the photo shows an entanglement on a PC with a lightweight tube handle, although it is of the more vulnerable center-attachment type, not with the attachment tape coming out of both ends, which might help reduce the snag chance.

[likestojump 3]

how about the bridle catching the corner of the rig ? (think cut-in laterals - which by the way I still love)

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Am I not seeing the big picture, or is it more complicated than what I see, it just seems that this mal can be soo easily prevented and so many lives saved.

You're right - it's a very simple cause-and-effect type relationship. Generally easy to prevent. But I would point out that the same could be said for most incidents: there's a simple cause, without which the incident would never have happened.

Low/no pull? Have an AAD.

Low turn? Don't initiate turns lower than ___.

Canopy collision? Keep your head on a swivel, and don't mix the patterns. (And track like a motherf**ker).

PCIT? Check to be sure it's cocked.


There's a "simple thing you can do" to prevent most issues (even though there are some cases that are out of your control, like the 'handle through the bridle' scenario above).


Don't get me wrong - I agree that a PCIT is one of the easiest mals to prevent. I check mine no less than 3 times during packing - it's dialed in as part of my packing routine. I think we all should be vigilant about it, and check our PC's after/during every packjob. I'm not arguing with you.

My point is simply to remind that in skydiving today, most incidents are caused by pilot error, rather than faulty gear. For every incident, there's usually that simple thing that could be easily prevented and "so many lives saved."

Thanks for bringing up this one of them - it's always good to think about.

Signatures are the new black.

[dragon2 0]

Seen some nice knots in pilotchutes (!), usually ones with a hackey handle and in combination with a wingsuit or camera wings where the pilotchute was in the burble for a bit and had time to 'dance around'.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DougH 270]

You can also cause a PCIT if you don't leave enough slack in the bridle one either side of the pin. I have seen that cause major hesitation where the jumper wasn't leaving any slack and was tucking the bridle in real tight on both sides. Some rigs have velcro to remind you to leave som slack.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[phoenixlpr 0]

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You can also cause a PCIT if you don't leave enough slack in the bridle one either side of the pin. I have seen that cause major hesitation where the jumper wasn't leaving any slack and was tucking the bridle in real tight on both sides. Some rigs have velcro to remind you to leave som slack.

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At terminal velocity a 28" shoud give you about 160 LBS and a 32" about 211 LBS.

Well if 160-211 LBS pull force can not extract your pin what can extract it?

Hesitation is not PCIT anyway.

[DougH 270]

If your pilot chute reaches full extension, and it tows for some time before pulling your pin then it is a PCIT.

Bill Booth and company must be putting on that velcro on their bridles to save money. It is a good thing that we have internet heros like you to straighten them out.

Besides what do you care Gabor, you should worry about staying current first.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Baksteen 84]

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My question here though, once it clears the containers and pulls the risers out, doesn't it now either turn into either a bag lock if it goes no farther, or full inflation and a good canopy above your head if nothing else is wrong?

A PCIT is caused by the pilot chute being unable to extract the pin. my guess is that once the d-bag is off you back your canopy will open, as the d-bag will generate drag too.

EDIT: A pilot chute hesitation is usually easily cleared when you look over your shoulder at the opening count of "1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000... WTF-1000??" when you feel no opening shock.

A baglock is a wholly different kind of nasty malfunction in which the canopy is unable to clear the d-bag.

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Here, it seems like, if your bag is too tight in the container, you either need a container that the bag can fit in properly, or a smaller canopy for that container, which ever is safer for the jumper and experience level? Or, if it's because of the closing loop being too tight, lengthen it up..right?
[snip]
Again, it seems here from what you're describing, can be prevented with the correct combination of gear, or paying more attention to your gear...and, if the tension was too tight, again due to the closing loop, make it longer. IMHO, if it takes 2 people, 4 feet and 4 hands to close a container, the loop is too tight

Sometimes your packjob will not be as neat as other times, which means you end up with a thick d-bag which in turn means a lot of cussing and the necessity for quite a bit of violence in closing the container (starting over is obviously not an option). Lengthening the loop is not always the answer though, because too long a closing loop has its own dangers.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

Here's another PCIT. It was caused by the pin getting captured in the inspection window on the bridle of a collapsible PC.

My suggestion. If you have a PC/bridle where the inspection window in on the same side as the pin, replace it with one with the window on the opposite side of the pin attachment point.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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You can also cause a PCIT if you don't leave enough slack in the bridle one either side of the pin. I have seen that cause major hesitation where the jumper wasn't leaving any slack and was tucking the bridle in real tight on both sides. Some rigs have velcro to remind you to leave som slack.

My, my my...aren't we the pleasant one with the snide remarks to Gabor?

I have no idea what type of PC/bridle you are using but on mine, the pin connetion point is fixed on the bridle and there is no opportunity to leave an optional amount of slack on the bag side of it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fpritchett64 0]

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You can also cause a PCIT if you don't leave enough slack in the bridle one either side of the pin. I have seen that cause major hesitation where the jumper wasn't leaving any slack and was tucking the bridle in real tight on both sides. Some rigs have velcro to remind you to leave som slack.

My, my my...aren't we the pleasant one with the snide remarks to Gabor?

I have no idea what type of PC/bridle you are using but on mine, the pin connetion point is fixed on the bridle and there is no opportunity to leave an optional amount of slack on the bag side of it.

yea, this one was kinda confusing me a bit. On the d-bag to pin portion of the bridle, I'll leave whatever slack I'm able to leave. On the pin to PC portion, I always tuck everything in and leave no slack. We don't want anything catching air prematurely...right?

[MajorDad 0]

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One cause is the PC getting knotted closed, if the bridle entangles with it.

Yep.

Recognize that picture.

Bridle half hitched the PC. After deploying the reserve (PC in Tow) and getting rid of the main as it was starting to deploy after, I landed wondering WTF?

Then I inspected the main and saw what was up with the PC and the light bulb went on.

I was dispatching a load of IAD students at the time and my thought before I deployed was "if I have a reserve ride I'll fall right in front of that student." During the PC in Tow, I was watching the student canopy get closer, and closer. Would of missed by a lot but I was shaking my head at the situation

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[pilot-one 0]

I didn't notice if it was mentioned yet but a mis-routed bridle will cause a PCiT as well. i.e. routed under the flap where the pilot chute won't pull the closing pin.

[fpritchett64 0]

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I didn't notice if it was mentioned yet but a mis-routed bridle will cause a PCiT as well. i.e. routed under the flap where the pilot chute won't pull the closing pin.

This is what I figured would be one of the major causes and should be 100% preventable, the whole point in me making this thread. How can you misroute a bridle if you're paying attention and know what you're doing? This is another reason I posted a separate thread in the safety and training section about shouldn't we know more about our gear?

[sovietskee 0]

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I also know that an uncocked pilot chute

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Not just that but i have a hackey and after releasing it the hackey blew up in between the straps at bottom of pilot chute where the bridel connects. When i got down (with main and pin still in place), the pilot chute was still cocked. The pilot chute would not inflate due to the hackey being through the connecting point.

Can you elaborate on this, I'm having a hard time picturing what happenned to you. Thanks