billvon 2,379 #26 January 19, 2009 >If you NEVER WANT TO MISROUTE YOUR CHEST STRAP...... >NEVER MISROUTE YOUR CHEST STRAP! While literally true, that's akin to saying "if you want to downsize rapidly and not get hurt - downsize rapidly and make sure you never get hurt!" History has shown, though, that saying things like that do not make them happen. There is actually a way to make sure your cheststrap never gets misrouted, and that is to thread it correctly once and then never unthread it. Winsor N (for example) does that. It's not as cool, of course, since you have to put your rig on like a shirt. But if it's important to you it's a (real) way to make sure it never gets misrouted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #27 January 19, 2009 QuoteWinsor N (for example) does that. It's not as cool, of course, since you have to put your rig on like a shirt. That's what I was suggesting up thread. But..that would prevent putting on legstraps first. So...which is the priority? Legstraps first, or having a permanently routed chest strap? I suppose you could have a Jay Moledzki chest strap that is long enough to tie a horse with, and step through the chest strap first.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #28 January 19, 2009 Quote Quote Winsor N (for example) does that. It's not as cool, of course, since you have to put your rig on like a shirt. That's what I was suggesting up thread. But..that would prevent putting on legstraps first. So...which is the priority? Legstraps first, or having a permanently routed chest strap? I suppose you could have a Jay Moledzki chest strap that is long enough to tie a horse with, and step through the chest strap first.... That or go back to having a Q-R snap on the strap, then again if we put a reserve on the front... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarak 0 #29 January 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteI hope when your overconfidence tries to bite you in the ass, one of your friends is watching your back and catches it. I hope that if I ever misroute my chest strap I fall out and die. I appreciate your commitment to self disciplineI'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #30 January 19, 2009 Ummm, so if you never take your chest strap apart, it will NEVER get misrouted! So there IS a foolproof method. We are making progress. It's not the same method as mine, and I think it is even MORE foolproof than mine. If I thought I needed to do that, I WOULD. But mine is foolproof enough for me. Trite as it sounds. Think about it. What IS a misrouted chest strap? How does it happen? My theory is that people don't forget HOW to put it on. They just don't finish the task. They leave it half done, then make it LOOK right. This can be prevented, IMHO. You can train yourself to NEVER do this. Maybe there are other chest strap errors that I am not thinking of. Are there other ways to screw up? Are there better ways to remember? I don't have all the answers. The way I do it has worked so far. I am confident that it will continue to work for me. (Just in case anybody missed that.) Time will tell. Oh yes. I DID IT MYSELF. About jump 6 or 8. Guy saw me, tore me a new one. Told me to never do it again. Told me how. Just passin' it on.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #31 January 19, 2009 QuoteThey leave it half done, then make it LOOK right. Stick around for a little longer, and you'll see you are wrong. And one thing cannot be more foolproof then another foolproof thing. Its either foolproof or not.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #32 January 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey leave it half done, then make it LOOK right. Stick around for a little longer, and you'll see you are wrong. Would you describe what I will see when I've been around long enough? Seriously, I'm here to learn.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #33 January 19, 2009 I'd rather recognise it as something that's easy to do and triple check it every time than to try and convince myself that I'm such a careful person that I'm immune to making said error. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #34 January 19, 2009 Already did happen to me.. Around jump 60 while I still was jumping student gear manifest decided to move me forward one or more loads. So I got a three minute call while the plane was already landing and still had to find an overall, rig, altimeter, helmet and goggle, don the gear, find an instructor to pincheck me AND hobble the 200-300 meters to the take off point on an almost-healed ankle. In the stress I misrouted my cheststrap. Thank god for pin-checks and thank you for saving my life, JohanW...."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #35 January 19, 2009 I agree. I have described one step of a process. Feeling confident that I am performing that step properly when I'm doing it is no reason to stop being vigilent. By all means continue your checks! I recheck my leg straps too. Check of threes is great, and BTW another example of grouping tasks to eliminate mistakes. The poll results show that some are confident enough to pick the dreaded 'never.' I think they realize that mistakes do happen, but think that they won't make that one. I hope they are right, and think it is possible that they will indeed never misroute their chest strap. I doubt if anything will prevent it from ever happening again, as it seems to be common for so many of us. Education and training is what I needed, and thankfully I got it before I made that mistake at a critical time. So don't slack off a bit, especially for the new folks. We bet our lives that we put our gear on right every jump, don't we? Some risks can be minimized. I'm looking to do that all the time for myself. I love skydiving and want to keep doing it as long as possible. I am comitted to self discipline. I've made mistakes; too many. I'm a forgetful person. I do what I feel is necessary for ME to get stuff right. I won't tell anybody they have to do it MY way. I won't even tell everybody they have to do it right. I feel confident that I won't put on my chest strap half way then stop. I hope nobody else does it that way, and if they do, it probably means they need some education and training, not that they are an idiot. Maybe someone will get something out of this. I hope so. If it pissed anybody off, sorry bout that.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #36 January 19, 2009 >What IS a misrouted chest strap? A chest strap that is not threaded per the manufacturer's instructions. Some examples: 1) A chest strap that is not threaded at all. 2) A chest strap that is not passed back through the slider bar. 3) A strap that is passed through the slider bar, doubled back, and passed through again. 4) A chest strap that contains a fold within the friction adapter. 5) A chest strap that has one or more twists in it before it is threaded. Your system of "always finish the task" would help you with 1 and 2, but not the others. If you will never make such an error, great - but others have. >My theory is that people don't forget HOW to put it on. They just don't finish the task. That's a good theory, but is only one of the ways in which people can 'screw it up.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpah 0 #37 January 19, 2009 In one post you say you'll never misroute your chest strap. In another you say you are confident you will do it right. In a third you say if you misroute your chest strap you hope you fall out and die. I'm confused... Edited for clarity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #38 January 19, 2009 Quote >What IS a misrouted chest strap? A chest strap that is not threaded per the manufacturer's instructions. Some examples: 1) A chest strap that is not threaded at all. 2) A chest strap that is not passed back through the slider bar. 3) A strap that is passed through the slider bar, doubled back, and passed through again. 4) A chest strap that contains a fold within the friction adapter. 5) A chest strap that has one or more twists in it before it is threaded. Your system of "always finish the task" would help you with 1 and 2, but not the others. If you will never make such an error, great - but others have. >My theory is that people don't forget HOW to put it on. They just don't finish the task. That's a good theory, but is only one of the ways in which people can 'screw it up.' Thanks Bill, this is a good contribution to the discussion. For me getting the twists out is part of putting it on right, so I do check for that before threading the buckle. #3 Requires a concious decision to do it wrong. Training and education SHOULD eliminate this. #1 - forgetting to do it at all. I did not consider this to be mis-routed, but will concede that it is. This is the final step with my rig, so the check for it must be tied to something else. In my case it's zipping up the suit. Going under the chest strap with the zipper is the check on it. If I zip up and don't hit the strap, something is wrong. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Each step confirms that the one before is done before moving on. The objective is to work on wiring my brain to prevent mistakes. Telling myself to be sure to remember to do something is very unreliable. Instead, I concentrate on HOW to remember things. Setting a routine with built in check points is a good way to do it. For those that want to argue that no system is perfect: Fair enough. If you think NO system is better, then use that one. It's all about YOU. This system has been perfect for me, so far. I believe that it will ALWAYS work for me. Upon reflection, I think I'll take back the '...hope I fall out.' one, if that's OK with y'all. I still bet my life on having my stuff on right, as do all of us. We should all win that bet. Peace But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #39 January 19, 2009 QuoteCall me a paranoia old fart, but I've seen a few things that make me waryKids these days, get their little old 33 years and think they have it all figured out eh?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #40 January 20, 2009 Quote My theory is that people don't forget HOW to put it on. They just don't finish the task. They leave it half done, then make it LOOK right. This can be prevented, IMHO. You can train yourself to NEVER do this. I don't think I've ever seen anyone intentionally leave a chest-strap half routed with a plan to finish it later. Much more common someone getting distracted while routing their chest strap, be it by internal or external factors, and simply doing it incorrectly. If they're also distracted during the gear check and it "looks right", well, they're in need of assistance from someone not so distracted. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #41 January 20, 2009 Quote Quote Call me a paranoia old fart, but I've seen a few things that make me wary Kids these days, get their little old 33 years and think they have it all figured out eh? Yeah, Yeah....I love it when Lew calls me n00b! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #42 January 20, 2009 'they're in need of assistance from someone not so distracted.' I agree with this completely. In fact, this is THE TIME to really take some time and make sure they get it. As I said, I did it myself, and still remember the lecture that followed, even though I wasn't even through gearing up. It wasn't just 'DON'T DO THAT!' It was a practical and thorough explination that still stays with me. It resonated with my diving experience, so it was easy to relate to for me. I've learned from this thread, (flames too. ) Chest strap problems happen a lot. Despite that, hardly anybody jumps without it on or with it misrouted. So it is getting done safely for the most part. Hats off to all that have or will make this happen. The sooner a skydiver becomes self reliant, the better, IMO. This should never lead to complacency. I do appreciate those that look out for me. I do not rely on them for my own gear. Thanks for your time. But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #43 January 20, 2009 It seems to me that the biggest single factor common to most gearing-up problems is HASTE. If you don't allow yourself to get rushed, you have a much better chance of doing such a simple thing correctly. We all let ourselves get rushed from time to time. Rushing to finish packing to make that extra load. Being late for the dirt dive. And on and on. If you take the time to gear up with your full attention on it, these things are far less likely to happen. We all know how to put the gear on. All we need is the time and a little attention to do it right. Don't let yourself get rushed. Don't manifest until your packing is done. Be aware of your airplane call and don't get drawn away to other things when it is time to gear-up. Don't let people rush you, it really isn't worth it. There's always another load, but not if you fall out of your harness. This is serious business - take the time to give it the attention it deserves. There's also usually a bit of time while the aircraft is being loaded, especially if there are tandems on the load. Don't waste it. Take that moment to check your handles and straps. Make a habit of it. Failing to put the gear on properly is 100% avoidable. Lots of people say how they'll reconsider the sport if they have their AAD save them for a dumb reason. Maybe we should apply some similar logic to the problem of mistakes putting our gear on. If you find that you made the mistake with your chest strap or your leg straps etc etc, maybe it is time to step back and recheck your priorities. There is very little that is more important than putting your gear on correctly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #44 January 20, 2009 >If you take the time to gear up with your full attention on it, these >things are far less likely to happen. A very good suggestion. I would also add that you should give yourself a final gear check at a time when you can devote your full attention to it. I do it in the plane at about 9000 feet, and check main flap, PC, handles, friction adapters, wing attachments (if doing video or wingsuit) riser covers, gloves, booties, swoop cords (if used) and helmet. Depending on doing practice counts, spotting etc this might be best done lower. This can happen at any time, but I recommend you do it after you get in the plane - since once you're in the plane it's too late to leave your helmet or altimeter on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #45 January 21, 2009 I'm pretty darned careful about how I put my rig on. It seems hard to imagine how I could misroute my chest strap. But to say I'd NEVER do it is not only stupid, it's just plain arrogant. I like doing gear checks with friends. We don't call attention to ourselves doing it, because it's so "uncool". But if I did a stupid job of gearing up, I'd sure be grateful to anyone else who calls my attention to my mistakes. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #46 January 21, 2009 Quote I like doing gear checks with friends. We don't call attention to ourselves doing it, because it's so "uncool". Uncool must be relative. At my DZ "public" gear checks are what the cool kids doOwned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #47 January 21, 2009 I voted “I may” because I have done it. I will NEVER misroute my chest strap. I've got a good way to NEVER do that. Do you? Quote Every skydiver is capable of making a small mistake on his/her next jump. When you think about it there are usually more ways to something wrong then there are to it right. Quote “Patrick De Gayardon, Rob Harris, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson, etc……… They were Kings - World Champions - Icons. They had talent, were hugely current, had incredible skills... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.” Tonto – 2005 Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try never to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration. Try never to be so arrogant as to think you can’t die in this sport just because you have convinced yourself “I can handle it”. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #48 January 21, 2009 I always say that I can misroute my chest strap or mess up my leg straps. That way I check myself to make sure I didn't."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
