Why I jumped a whole Season with a BASE rig from 13K ft...

[jdatc 0]

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As a separate issue, I'm a bit annoyed by the "young punk" attitude I've seen from a few here that hold threats of physical violence towards the offending rigger.

If they really feel that way then they are idiots for trusting anyone else to take their life in their hands. If you're gonna be so bold, learn to do it yourself.

These days, I witness the majority of jumpers hand gear over to anyone who is labeled "rigger", pay them some money and have no concern other than it not be wrinkly or late when they get it back, but not one of them could identify a safety stow, or verify that toggles are properly stowed on their reserve. They simply have faith in the "Black Magic" that their 40 to 80 dollars buys.

The OP has made a great point and lesson avaliable to be learned, but I fear that it's getting lost on many of the masses here.

Maybe you should make your own thread then and see the wonderful responses you get?

Perhaps you could title it ALMOST ALL NEWER JUMPERS SUCK and KNOW NOTHING judging by your posting style?

Sometimes I feel the great Dropzone.com elders have lost touch with the masses....

Each post of yours seems to contribute more towards belittling other jumpers in the thread then it does towards furthering an important issue/situation....

That's sad.

Perhaps what the 'newer' jumpers are doing is putting their trust in a system and the fact that someone was trained and certified to do a job, and will actually do it correctly? I mean, it's what they are suppose to do right? Otherwise why do we need a license-ing system?

I don't get it....

So your saying we should not trust people who are trained, certified and licesnsed to do jobs without a multitude of references and observation of their work?

When you get on an aircraft, do you check the pilot and his license everytime? When's the last time you asked to watch your 737 captain in the simulator before your flight across the country, or do you put your trust in the system? I mean all you want to do is get there safely and on time right?

Is that the same thing?

_justin

[BrianM 1]

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When you get on an aircraft, do you check the pilot and his license everytime? When's the last time you asked to watch your 737 captain in the simulator before your flight across the country, or do you put your trust in the system? I mean all you want to do is get there safely and on time right?

Is that the same thing?

No, that is not the same thing. That would be a fitting analogy for a tandem passenger. A better analogy for the licenced jumper/rigger relationship would be the pilot/aircraft mechanic relationship. The pilot trusts that the certified mechanic has done his job properly, but he still has quite a bit of knowledge of how the aircraft systems work and does a thorough pre-flight inspection. So by all means, trust your rigger, but also learn about your gear and how it works.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[pinkfairy 0]

That's not a skills problem with your rigger, that's an attitude problem. Even I can route lines correctly through the slider and put the slinks on properly. If he doesn't bother to check his apprentice's work or won't read the manual, then he should lose his licence.

IMHO skills are easier to fix than attitudes.

Oh, and I'd feel safer with a BASE rig than what your pictures showed.

BTW there was a rigger here in Norway who lost his licence due to a similar mistake. Only he did it himself instead of letting an apprentice mess up, but I don't think that would have made a difference.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[BMFin 0]

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So by all means, trust your rigger, but also learn about your gear and how it works.

Why is everyone saying "learn about your gear" in this thread ? Sure learning can never be a bad thing, but its not really relevant here, since the only person that has shown lack of knowledgement has been the riggers who are responsible of the reserve pack.

Also these "learn to know your rigger" opinions are such bullshit. Licenced rigger is a licenced rigger. If the licencing system isnt reliable enough, then theres something wrong with the licencing system. Secondly how can you expect someone with 100 jumps to posses the ability to judge a riggers competence by "getting to know him" ?

[diablopilot 2]

I suggest you stop wearing a thong back. That's might be what's making you get your panties in a wad.

I'll leave "nice" to those who are better at it. I'll stick to being "crusty" about helping people learn more about keeping themselves safe.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skybytch 259]

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>for the record..sonic packs my reserve..at the ranch..i trust him way further then i can throw him..<<

Here's the result of some rigging from the guy you trust with your life.

Recently a rig came in to a rigger friend of mine. The reserve had a service bulletin out on it that had not been completed. The SB was 7 years old. The reserve had been repacked at least 8 times by 5 different riggers since the SB came out. Two of those packjobs were by people whose names lots of skydivers would recognize.

I'm pretty sure that the packjob on my reserve is gonna open, but if my rigger made a mistake and I die because of it... oh well. I knew and accepted the risks when I got on the airplane.

[BrianM 1]

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Why is everyone saying "learn about your gear" in this thread ?

Because it could save your life.

I think it started when people started threatening physical harm to the rigger at fault, and not realizing that nothing is 100%, there are no guarantees. You jump out of a plane, you might die for any one of a number of reasons, including rigging errors. That is the nature of skydiving. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I would certainly have words with the rigger, but physical harm??? Wow.

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Sure learning can never be a bad thing, but its not really relevant here

Learning is always relevant.

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the only person that has shown lack of knowledgement has been the riggers who are responsible of the reserve pack.

I agree. The owner of the rig had no way of knowing, and no reason to suspect, that anything was wrong with his gear.

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Also these "learn to know your rigger" opinions are such bullshit. Licenced rigger is a licenced rigger. If the licencing system isnt reliable enough, then theres something wrong with the licencing system.

It's impossible for any licencing system to be 100%. Even if it was, skills and attitudes can change over time. The only way to know for sure what is on your back is to get your ticket and do it yourself, as diablopilot said. Of course, rigging errors are the exception, not the rule, and you should be able to find a decent rigger and trust them. If you are comfortable trusting any rigger, that is your choice, and that is fine. Others aren't, that is their choice, and it is also fine.

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Secondly how can you expect someone with 100 jumps to posses the ability to judge a riggers competence by "getting to know him" ?

Mainly by talking to experienced jumpers who've been around a while. I think that the vast majority of riggers are fine. There will always be some who aren't, and the experienced jumpers on the DZ probably know who they are.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[peregrinerose 0]

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Also these "learn to know your rigger" opinions are such bullshit. Licenced rigger is a licenced rigger. If the licencing system isnt reliable enough, then theres something wrong with the licencing system. Secondly how can you expect someone with 100 jumps to posses the ability to judge a riggers competence by "getting to know him" ?

I could not disagree with this more. All a license means is that the rigger passed the practical. It doesn't mean that he pays attention to SBs, keeps up to date, has a decent work ethic, maintains a clean rigging environment, counts his tools, actually inspects the reserves he repacks, etc. There's a LOT of variablity from one rigger to the next.

I have seen first hand a rigger that takes a LOT of shortcuts (not inspecting most reserves, just popping and repacking, not cleaning cutaway cables, lying to his clients about things like cypres being on 'back order', insulting other riggers' work even though it's neater than his, etc.)

Someone who doesn't know shit about rigging wouldn't know just how many shortcuts this guy takes, unless they watched another rigger, asked questions, or knew a bit about gear and reserve repacks. And THAT is why learning gear and rigging, at least to some degree, is so important... to be able to make educated decisions like that.

Until a person has that knowledge base (like a new jumper), the best way to find a good rigger is to ask other riggers who they would trust to pack their own reserves. The rigger to run away from is the one that says no one but himself.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[airtwardo 6]

I think it started when people started threatening physical harm to the rigger at fault, and not realizing that nothing is 100%, there are no guarantees. You jump out of a plane, you might die for any one of a number of reasons, including rigging errors.

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Absolutely...

Except that falls in the category of gross negligence, not just a 'rigging error'.

There are no guarantees, but we all do everything we can to minimise the risks, that's why we carry a reserve.

This clown didn't care enough to supervise the initial assembly of a new system and put it out to be used in a condition that would more likely than not, have caused a fatality.

Sorry if it's not politically correct, but if it was my rig, MY LIFE he had put in jeopardy...we throw!

To me it's no different than someone putting one bullet in a revolver, spinning the cylinder, pointing it at my head and pulling the trigger...without me knowing.

That level of stupidity and incompetence rates more than a cordial... 'oh by the way, you screwed up'.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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Why is everyone saying "learn about your gear" in this thread ?

"learn to know your rigger" opinions are such bullshit. Licenced rigger is a licenced rigger.

how can you expect someone with 100 jumps to posses the ability to judge a riggers competence by "getting to know him" ?

Everyone is saying to learn about your gear because it's important, and there appears to be a lack of interest in it lately.

What do you know about getting a riggers ticket? Did you know that once you get a ticket, you work on your own, with no checks or balances in place?

Almost every other skydiving professional has somebody working closely with them. AFF I's work in pairs, TI's have video guys hanging around, and pilots have to deal with ATC, the FAA, and other pilots.

Riggers get their tickets, then go home and work alone. Can you see how this might create a disparity between the skills of different, licensed riggers?

Some riggers take the course, and end their education right there. They do things they way they did to pass the course, and call it a day. If they got their ticket five years ago, or ten years ago, that's the extent of their knowledge. Is that who you want packnig your stuff?

As far as what you can do? It's easy, learn about your gear. Hang out with riggers while they work, and ask questions. If you have any fear of 'bothering' these poeple, bring food and drinks, and they'll be happy to have you around.

Take your knowledge, and hang out when your rig is being packed. Be a second set of eyes on what's happening. Everyone makes mistakes, but the chances of two people making the same mistake on the same day are slim.

You only get three repacks per year. Three times a year, take the time to schedule your repack at a time when you can be there. Make an appointment with the rigger to do the work at a certain time (I suggest around lunch or dinner for the reasons stated above).

Got a busy schedule? Maybe you'll have to get your repack a few weeks early to make the timing work.

With the number of people who never pack their mains these days, it is scary to think that they're jumping a rig with two pack jobs they know nothing about.

[mark 102]

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Ok I have worked on Aircraft for about the past six years and I am a Collateral Duty Inspector. As a "CDI" I do no "work" in that I watch people do the work and inspect the work after it is done. I was just thinking if the same precautions where taken on reserve repacks maybe mistakes could be drastically reduced. Yes you may have to pay more but is it not worth the extra few buck? Could this policy also lengthen the repack requirements? Two riggers are better than one, one would think. Quality Assurance is the only thing that matters in something as important as the "ONE". A worker and an inspector would be the way to fix this OTHER THAN A BOOT IN THE ASS OF FORSAID PACKER. Again this is only speaking from an aircraft inspector. Please let me know what you packers think.

Writing as a rigger, not as a packer:

Most rigging shops are part-time, one-person operations. Very few are full-time operations with two or more riggers. Your proposal would double the cost of a reserve inspection and pack, since most of the QA checks need to be made in the course of the pack and would require the physical presence of a second rigger regardless of the amount of other work available (repack or repairs on a different rig, for example). Also, the requirement to coordinate work schedules for two part-time riggers would greatly increase the time a rig would be out of service waiting for repack.

To get to the quantity of work where a CDI would be practical would require consolidation of rigging facilities -- which would have the unintended consequence of consolidation of expertise and fewer equipment experts available for immediate consultation at the many small drop zones across the country. There is a trade-off, and requiring additional rigger checks may paradoxically be more risky than the system we have now.

Mark

[JohnDeere 0]

If nothing else changed in this situation except the OP was a master rigger. It would not make a damn bit of differnce~!!!!!!!! Shut up about knowing more about your gear. IT DOES NOT APPLY HERE!!!!!!!! Try starting a new thread. The gear was assembled before he got it. The only lesson he could and did learn about gear is to let his rigger assemble it (were he can watch if he so choses). All of that was cleared up in like the first three post. Try reading next time.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[speedy 0]

Nick,

you seemed to be of the opinion that the reserve would have opened in that configuration, albeit with controlabilty issues.

I have thought a lot about this and I am convinced that the slider would have jammed during the initial opening phase.

Do you reallly believe that the slider would come down?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[speedy 0]

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I think it started when people started threatening physical harm to the rigger at fault, and not realizing that nothing is 100%, there are no guarantees. You jump out of a plane, you might die for any one of a number of reasons, including rigging errors.

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Absolutely...

Except that falls in the category of gross negligence, not just a 'rigging error'.

There are no guarantees, but we all do everything we can to minimise the risks, that's why we carry a reserve.

This clown didn't care enough to supervise the initial assembly of a new system and put it out to be used in a condition that would more likely than not, have caused a fatality.

Sorry if it's not politically correct, but if it was my rig, MY LIFE he had put in jeopardy...we throw!

To me it's no different than someone putting one bullet in a revolver, spinning the cylinder, pointing it at my head and pulling the trigger...without me knowing.

That level of stupidity and incompetence rates more than a cordial... 'oh by the way, you screwed up'.

And exactly there airtwardo has hit the nail on the head.

The most sensible post in this thread.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[pinkfairy 0]

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I think it started when people started threatening physical harm to the rigger at fault, and not realizing that nothing is 100%, there are no guarantees. You jump out of a plane, you might die for any one of a number of reasons, including rigging errors.

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Absolutely...

Except that falls in the category of gross negligence, not just a 'rigging error'.

There are no guarantees, but we all do everything we can to minimise the risks, that's why we carry a reserve.

This clown didn't care enough to supervise the initial assembly of a new system and put it out to be used in a condition that would more likely than not, have caused a fatality.

Sorry if it's not politically correct, but if it was my rig, MY LIFE he had put in jeopardy...we throw!

To me it's no different than someone putting one bullet in a revolver, spinning the cylinder, pointing it at my head and pulling the trigger...without me knowing.

That level of stupidity and incompetence rates more than a cordial... 'oh by the way, you screwed up'.

And exactly there airtwardo has hit the nail on the head.

The most sensible post in this thread.

The "we might die anyway" argument doesn't mean that we shouldn't care, or that the rigger who signed this pack and assembly job shouldn't lose his licence. Any discussion could end with the "We could all DIE anyway" argument. I don't think it's a very good argument, especially not in this case.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[agent_lead 0]

this thread is turning into a flamefest...

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[deadwood 0]

I found this same thing on a rig that had been repacked by 4 different riggers over 2 and a half years.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[billvon 2,380]

>it's no different than someone putting one bullet in a revolver, spinning
>the cylinder, pointing it at my head and pulling the trigger...

More like giving you that gun and saying "it's unloaded - why don't you point that at yourself and pull the trigger?" He may indeed be a completely incompetent dude, and might be so clueless that he doesn't know how to check whether the gun is loaded or not. But it might still be a good idea to check yourself.

There's no question that riggers have a duty to exercise sufficient care to ensure that the reserve is hooked up correctly. Some things we can learn from this:

1) Riggers screw up. Learning to assemble/inspect/repack your own gear can save your life when riggers do screw up.

2) Reserves may not function as intended because of manufacturing, assembly, packing and operator error. Jumpers may well want to consider this when deciding what size reserve to jump.

3) Choosing the right rigger can be a critical decision, and jumpers should use the resources at their disposal (including this forum) to make informed decisions about which rigger they use.

4) Direct and active supervision is critical when a rigger supervises others who are packing reserves.

[hackish 8]

So I'm a newb but I don't think I'd want the customer supervising me pack his/her reserve because it's distracting and takes away from the concentration I need to devote to the packjob. I was actually thinking of videoing all the packjobs in case anyone ever makes an allegation that something wasn't done right.

-Michael

[BrianM 1]

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1) Riggers screw up. Learning to assemble/inspect/repack your own gear can save your life when riggers do screw up.

I once had someone bring me a brand new container and reserve that he had just bought. He said "I assembled it myself, can you double check my work then pack it?". I thought that was pretty cool. He learned a lot about his gear, and he'd even done everything correctly.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[BMFin 0]

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3) Choosing the right rigger can be a critical decision, and jumpers should use the resources at their disposal (including this forum) to make informed decisions about which rigger they use.

Ok. Lets start a list of the bad rigggers here. That way no rigger on the list has to be responsible of their actions and even if they arent on the list they may always say it was your own fault you didnt supervise the packjob...


This is what you are suggesting right ?

[billvon 2,380]

> I don't think I'd want the customer supervising me pack his/her reserve
>because it's distracting and takes away from the concentration I need to
>devote to the packjob.

That's fine. They, in turn, can decide whether they want a rigger who is concerned about being watched. Personally, I recommend people choose a rigger who does allow them to watch their reserve repacks so they can become more familiar with their gear.

[billvon 2,380]

> Lets start a list of the bad rigggers here. That way no rigger on the list
>has to be responsible of their actions and even if they arent on the list
>they may always say it was your own fault you didnt supervise the packjob...

What are you talking about?

Choosing a rigger is an important decision, and jumpers should make use of all the resources at their disposal. Choosing a rigger based on the fact that he's cheap, all the chicks dig him and he's the life of the party wouldn't be the best way to go (IMO.)

[MagicGuy 0]

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> I don't think I'd want the customer supervising me pack his/her reserve
>because it's distracting and takes away from the concentration I need to
>devote to the packjob.

That's fine. They, in turn, can decide whether they want a rigger who is concerned about being watched. Personally, I recommend people choose a rigger who does allow them to watch their reserve repacks so they can become more familiar with their gear.

I agree here 100%. I have yet to come across a rigger who wouldn't let me watch them pack my reserve. If they had said no, I would've been taking my rig elsewhere.

It's your rig - you have every right to watch what they are doing, even if you/them say absolutely nothing during the whole process.

[Lindsey 0]

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So I'm a newb but I don't think I'd want the customer supervising me pack his/her reserve because it's distracting and takes away from the concentration I need to devote to the packjob. I was actually thinking of videoing all the packjobs in case anyone ever makes an allegation that something wasn't done right.

-Michael

If a rigger has that much difficulty focusing on his work, then he/she should give it up, imho. It's not like packing a reserve is all THAT overwhelming. Maybe I'll ask, from now on, to watch so that I can weed out, right off the bat, those riggers who might say no.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail