0
cornishe

different reserve packjob

Recommended Posts

I'm sure in all the years someone has tried this packjob and I'd like some input.

Its being used by many for fixed object jumping and I like the way the flakes contain/reef the tail just a bit longer reducing the chance of line over. here's a picutre to describe the folds. obviously this isn't a resreve, and there's no slider, but that's not necessary to desribe the differnce from the 'standard' reserve packjob.

What do the rest of you think?
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


For BASE jumping or for reserves?


FOR RESERVES. I'm on 'dropzone'.com, ya, not http://www.blincmagazine.com? ;)

Quote

Should reserve be packed as mfg require? Than may be not.


Heh, the container manual or the canopy manual? Both usually have parachute packing instructions. Anyway, to clarify for this thread, I'm not at all concerned with any legalities or faa technicalities. I'd much rather deliver to the customer a better product/service than what any "manual" says. I'm looking for real world knowledge on the pros/cons of using this folding.

Phoneixlpr- I don't see Rigger as one of the qualifications in your profile. Do you have any experience with testing different packjobs? If so, please provide useful information.


-
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

christ in a sidecar... please don't post here if you have zero relevant experience. stick to the freefly forum or bonfire please.



what's up douchebag. <- it's a fact, not a personal attack.

I have done just this with the exception of letting the center cel tail OVER the rest of the packjob and wrapping it ( the rest of the tail folds are under the 3 foolds) - for better containment. Even have a ride on one like this. I agree that the CR method contains the tail better and thus inhibits a line over. Legality-wise - probably grey area, but i do this on MY OWN reserve.

cya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
finally a legitamate response, and even with some pillow talk!

Ok, I see, so you pulled the center-cell of the tail back over the folds so you can do the traditional s-fold of the bottom under the top-skin? COol, I didn't think of that.

PS- go fuck yourself with a retractable baton. Nick rugai recommmends the 21" model. <- it IS a personal attack! B|
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Heh, the container manual or the canopy manual? Both usually have parachute packing instructions.



If you don't know which one takes precedence legally you need a refresher course.:|

Quoting the FAA "Specifically, when various parachute components are interchanged, the parachute rigger should follow the canopy manufacturer's instructions as well as the parachute container manufacturer's instructions. However, the container manufacturer's instructions take precedence when there is a conflict between the two." I'll let you find where the quote is from.

Quote

Anyway, to clarify for this thread, I'm not at all concerned with any legalities or faa
technicalities.



Oh thats right, you don't care about legalities.:S

Quote

I'd much rather deliver to the customer a better product/service than what any "manual" says. I'm looking for real world knowledge on the pros/cons of using this folding.



You don't think the real world experience of high speed drop tests for load as well as low speed drop tests for opening speed has any relevence? Oh, of course this isn't really about reserves since there is no slider to position and it would kill someone at terminal.


Real world, we all know riggers use variations in packing, some that fall within the guidlelines of the manuals, a few that don't. But for the most part minor variations on a theme that some manufacturer at least has tested. But I'd suggest low speed sliderless base openings are not sufficient testing for skydiving reserve procedures.

As a DZO, according to your profile, I'd think you would be a little more concerned about legalities and liability. Is your method better? Maybe. But go do a full range of drop tests to prove it. We know the "manual" method works.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not saying mine is better. If I thought it was better I wouldnt be asking the question here. A lot of people feel its better in the base world (slider and sliderless) and I asked for an opinion from riggers (especially manufacturers) that have experimented with this for a lot longer than me or the guys I know using this method.

You haven't really given me anything other than "the manual works" which is where I was at already. I (and probably others) would like to know why some of these other methods were ditched... as i mentioned in the first post " I'm sure in all the years someone has tried this packjob".

I'm not trying to fly a jolly roger flag here, but it's stupid NOT to ask "why" once in a while. The world isn't still flat, right? Don't answer that. ;)
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How would this pack job take to being s folded, eared, and stuffed (errr... placed) in a molar bag? Would it take making ears as well?

Also where are you going to put the slider? This could make a large difference in opening speeds at both low and particulary high speed where you don't have an experience with this pack jobs. While reserve have to open fast they can open too fast (read hard) and either distroy the jumper or the canopy.

I'm not sure I can tell from one photo exactly what you've done. I'm not a base jumper but I've watched some pack. You may need more photos for us un-base types to know exactly what your doing, not being current on base pack jobs.

You seem to be asking "why shouldn't I do this on a skydiving reserve?" The answer is you don't have high speed opening data (I assume).
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the slider slide right up no problem, and the pack job takes to ears just as easily.

I'm doing pushrod seals on the 182 tonight but tomorrow ill be packing reserves and will pack my personal one like this and take pictures along the way and post them for you and anyone else having trouble visualizing it.

THere is lots of high speed data as base jumpers are using this slider-up off of large terminal walls. You can use any type of nose treatment as before to slow or speed opening the only difference I see is the containment of the tail.


-
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh boy, this one is going to be fun . . .

Early (1980s) B.A.S.E. jumpers packed for jumping the Flat Iron Building the same way they did for jumping at the drop zone. It was just a modified Flat Pack. Basically the canopy was laid out on its side and then accordion folded. The modified part was not using a deployment bag, or slider, and coiling the lines in the bottom of the container. Generically this was called a Free Pack. And even this wasn't entirely new as skydivers were already doing something similar (except for using a slider) way back in the late 1970s and they called it a Trash Pack.

By the mid to late 1980s some skydiving reserves were first being PRO Packed, and this is long before most skydivers were doing their mains that way at the DZ. At that time we were still jumping F111 7-cell canopies as mains and flat packing was working fine. It worked fine because off heading openings after a good track on a slow as hell 7-cell didn't cause many collisions on skydives. However, down on the Flat Iron Building an off heading opening was bad news. And all through this time B.A.S.E. jumpers were smacking the objects they had just jumped from left and right.

By about 1988 it became clear, if you can imagine the configuration in your mind's eye, how much better a PRO pack is over a Flat Pack for getting symmetrical (and on-heading) deployments. And it was around this time that B.A.S.E. jumper, Master Rigger, and B.A.S.E. rig manufacturer, Moe Viletto started using and teaching the rest of us the "on the ground PRO pack clamp method" for B.A.S.E. jumping. Why, you might ask, on the ground instead of over your shoulder? It was mainly because that was how most skydiving reserves were (and still are) packed and unless you were really tall it was difficult to flake out a huge 7-cell over your shoulder. And it wasn't until the early 1990s when the smaller 9-cell mains became popular that people started packing over their shoulders at the DZ.

When you look at the photo Abbey posted in the first message you are basically looking at the standard skydiving reserve pack job that dates back to the 1980s. However, over the years the tail, and what you do with it, has migrated all over the place. At first it was generally wrapped around the nose of the canopy. Then it was folded under itself but behind the nose of the canopy. And now it's being folding completely the other way. And the 45 degree folds, a throwback to round parachute packing, was sometimes used, or not, in all three of these methods. And I'm not so sure this latest method isn’t just newer B.A.S.E. jumpers trying to be new rather than refining something outright. But like all things in B.A.S.E. only time will tell.

The funny part is how we've come full circle. And I think it was Abbey himself who wrote recently that sometimes he doesn't bother with the clamps and the traditional BASE pack job at the Perrine Bridge. He just flat packs and goes. And that's fine because that pack job works, it's a bridge so an off heading opening isn't the end of the world, and the landing area there is big and forgiving.

As to Terry's comment about following the manufacturer's instructions, well, that's fine when you're in court, but it means little when you're doing a 100 mph at three hundred feet. And on the high speed issue and lack of data, there have been more than enough terminal B.A.S.E. jumps made this way to prove it works fine no matter what you do with the tail.

And as a Rigger myself I'll tell you this. If you ever table open your skydiving reserve and once out of the freebag find something similar to Abbey's picture then hang on to your Rigger with both hands. A Rigger who is also an experienced B.A.S.E. jumper is gold. Over the years I've opened enough skydiving rigger's work on a table with a shudder. And I'll tell you if for some reason they didn't use a slider to straighten things out we'd be in big trouble.

Of course, there are many nuances in all the above that are difficult to explain in writing. But skydivers use two canopies and so can get away with each being half-assed packed because parachutes are so inherently reliable it's rare to have two canopies on the same person that don't work right. Since B.A.S.E. jumpers forgo a main, and basically launch with only a reserve, it pays, for them, to put a bit more thought and effort into it . . .

Edited to add: I mean Abbey's picture without the clamps of course, LOL.

NickD :)BASE 194

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know one Master Rigger that packs like this ALL the time, (not me, by the way) and when i first opened one of his pack jobs I was like, "Huh, Whaaaa???. It was absolutely neat and tidy. I won't pack reserves like this because I don't want that whiney phone call saying "You caaaan't dooo it like that!!!". I don't need it. But i will not throw this guy under the bus because of this method, I use it on my base gear, slider up, down high speed or low speed with good results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We all know Riggers who just live for opening other people's reserve pack jobs and finding things "not according to the manual" but wtf, a manual that was written 25 years ago?

When square reserves first appeared riggers had to have something to hang their hats on, so following the "manual" was it. But we know so much more about how ram-air canopies behave now. Older riggers will remember Para-Flites earliest square reserves like the Safety Star and how convoluted that pack job was. In light of what we know today it was a joke.

So, yes, you can get away with holding up a 25 year old manual and walk away from a law suit. But your job as a rigger is making sure your customers walk away from their jumps.

And if the previous poster got hauled into a lawsuit I, and I'm sure many more, could be rounded up to be expert witnesses in his defense.

The fact so many of us are willing to say we pack our own reserves one way and our customers another shows the depth of the problem.

It's 2008 not 1978 . . .

NickD :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Nick. Holy crap we're not fighting! :)
Quote

And the 45 degree folds, a throwback to round parachute packing,


actually in this case the 45's are used to expose the tailpocket. I do pilot rigs on the airport so I know why one could think its connected.

Quote

come full circle


now i just need to know WHY??

Quote

Edited to add: I mean Abbey's picture without the clamps of course, LOL.


I had watched a friend land with a clamp still attached to his tail. I snatched it off and kept it to tell the story with. :o

Thanks Nick.

PS- it's spelled 'Abbie'.

chao,
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hey nick, dont worry, my mom had the same problem with that chick name! Abbie, that was awesome "holy shit, theres still a clamp on that guys canopy!" I still laugh.... cya in a couple weeks
-Moose

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

christ in a sidecar... please don't post here if you have zero relevant experience. stick to the freefly forum or bonfire please.



he has some experience. he just.. wasn't alloud to continue his training. poor stayhigh. we still love you.:D
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I always understood it that the reason to pack the tail that way (on free packed canopies) was to keep the tail and the bulk of the pack job moving as one unit until it reached line stretch. I believed packing in this fashion would stop the tail from separating from the bulk on the way to line stretch and prevent the tail from catching air out of sequence therefore preventing line overs. Yes I understand that it also promotes nose first inflation but that is already achieved by every other BASE pack out there and in this case becomes secondary to the act of maintaining control over the tail of a free packed canopy.
So the way I understand it the true benefit of your pack job is on its way to line stretch not during its inflation. If this is so it seems pointless to pack a reserve in this way as the canopy is controlled by the free bag up until line stretch.
Just my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hope that none of us ever have to defend our pack jobs. Unfortunately when there is an incident, all aspects of the jump, gear, instruction, pilot, plane, mfg of the jumper's underware, etc... come up for close examination. And this can be true even if the jumper simply failed to pull at all.

I also grant you that the best way to avoid a problem, is to give the jumper you best pack job.

Unfortunately, in the short time I have been rigging (9yrs part time), I have already seen "improved" methods and even alterations to equipment that upon review with the mfg had serious (and in many cases known) flaws.

If you have a better way, I would ask on all our behalfs that you talk to the mfg. I am often surprised how open they are to discussing new, different and alternative methods. Those in the BASE community have my respect in that they "have to get it right the first time", but I also have the perception that they are often dealing with a more narrow set of parameter (and some issues skydivers don't deal with) that may lead to choices that are not right for skydiving gear.

If your method IS better, get the mfg's to see it directly and authorize a better way.

Maybe those who have gone through the process of getting a TSO can answer the question of "why wouldn't you do it this way?"

I am GLAD to see that there are those willing to try new things, and look forward to seeing the new methods fully tested. This is how our industry moves forward.

HOWEVER, I do not believe that your causing your paying customers to be "parachute test jumpers" will go over well with the courts or FAA. They won't see or care that you were using a "better" method, they will simply state that you were recklessly disregarding the established (documented) methods and exposing the innocent to unnecessary risks.

Your rig, BASE gear, mains are one thing. Customer's TSOed reserves are another.

Just my $.02
JW

PS - I would like to know more about your technique, and hope you take your knowledge/expertise to the gear mfgs to help us all be safer.
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm forcing this on my customers as test jumpers.

I'm bringing it up HERE, to do exactly what your saying. The manufacturers are on this forum, unfortunately none have replied yet.



-
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You will probally not see them reply in public either since these forums and any public post can be used in court against them (and have been used against the USPA already). The best thing to do is to contact them directly and speak to their staff directly. I would like to hear their thoughts since I've seen some BASE pack job techniques that would carry over very nicely to reserves but are unable to since they are not spelled out that way in their user manual.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0