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hudsonderek

riggers ticket

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so, my understanding is you have to do 20 reserve repacks to get your riggers certificate and take a written and practical test. do you have to take one of these rigging courses, or could you just pack 20 reserves with a senior rigger, get a sign off and go take the test? the courses would be a lot more informative, but they aren't cheap, and I'm sure working under an very informative rigger can be almost as effective. I'm only interested in the back type certificate. also, do you have to pack rounds? or could you get a certificate with the limitation "only square reserves".

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You don't have to take a course. Just pack 20 reserves, get your sign-offs, take the tests.

I don't know of anyone with a "ram-air only" limitation on his certificate. I don't think it's ever been done. On the other hand, I don't know of any regulation which would prevent issuing a certificate with such a limitation.

Even if the FAA was willing to issue such a limited certificate, they don't have a procedure for removing that limitation, except possibly by surrendering the certificate and going through the whole certification process a second time.

Mark

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You don't just have to do 20 'repacks'. You SHOULD be doing 20 reserve or emergency parachute inspections and pack jobs under the direct supervision of a senior or master rigger with a back rating, along with minor repairs and assembly. Expect to learn how to use a sewing machine and patch a parachute. You have to take a written test and once you pass that and have a sign off from your training rigger you get permission from the FAA to take an oral and practical test from a DPRE. There is a lot of knowledge concerning regulations, materials, construction, and other catagories I'm forgetting at the moment. You can find the testing guides and sample questions on the FAA website.

You should expect (at least if I was training you) to pack pilot emergency rigs with rounds, and perhaps with squares, skydiver rig(s) with rounds and a variety of skydiver rigs with ram airs. You cannot get a ram air only restricted license.

You should expect that this will take longer calendar time if the rigger and you are only doing this part time. I took 2 years.;) But wasn't in a hurry.:)

You should also expect to compensate the training rigger. I don't know that I would end up charging a lot less than some of the classes. There are costs for the written and the oral and practical. This is a lot of time, effort, and responsibility for the training rigger.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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...or could you just pack 20 reserves with a senior rigger, get a sign off and go take the test?



Yes, but as someone else posted already, it needs to be much more than just packing...

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... I'm sure working under an very informative rigger can be almost as effective.



Actually, much more effective if you find the right rigger to work with.

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If you show up to your practical with 20 repacks on the same Javelin, I can all but guarantee the DPRE is going to take you on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

Spending the $20 on Poynter and Schlatter's home study course might help you decide what you want to do. (Note: I actually mean $120 because you are going to need Poynter 1 & 2, but you are going to have to get those anyway.)

The home study course:
http://www.para-gear.com/templates/base_template.asp?group=23#B1875

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Depends on the student and the rigger. I've helped 2 or 3 friends get ready for courses. Search my posts for another description. It was okay but slightly a pain. I didn't charge them. But I was single at the time. Now, with two kids under 19 months I wouldn't do it period, let alone for free.

Also depends on the compensation. I think I paid my mentor a flat $250 for all instruction needed for senior ticket on two ratings. In 1983.;) Probably worked out to 10 cents an hour. But it was as much as a favor as a profit center. He also planned on 3 or 4 at once.

A new wrinkle. Riggers used to supervise the rigger student pack jobs, and then seal and sign them off to go into the field. (with the customer's knowledge if done right) While riggers can still supervise others recent FAA input has said that STUDENT RIGGER pack jobs can't go into the air. So, what used to be simply a longer version of doing a repack for a customer is now a student excercise only.

At a DZ, if a rigger has nothing better to do, then maybe they would be willing to take it on. But don't do it on a casual basis. Both students and instructor riggers can become bored or disallusioned and not follow through. 3 or 4 people started with me in 1983 and I'm the only one that got my ticket. You AND your instructor need to be dedicated. I think what my friends did was a good method. Worked with me some, got some pack jobs and sewing practice, then went to a course. Both were not very impressed with the courses (neither were Dave's) and said they learned a lot more from me.

See this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3160916;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread for stuff to do without a rigger. Lots of book learning for the rainy days.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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This one I have not seen. Where is that written?



only a certified rigger can pack a live reserve, and a student rigger is not yet a licensed rigger



So if I supervise someone packing a reserve, who is not rated, the rig can't be jumped?
That's not how I read the regulations.
He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

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recent FAA input has said that STUDENT RIGGER pack jobs can't go into the air



This one I have not seen. Where is that written?



The supervision privileges in FAR 65.125 refer to FAR 105.43(a) and 105.45(b)(1): mains and tandem mains. There are no supervision privileges for reserve packs.

FAR 105.43(b) and 105.45(b)(2) require the reserve parachute to have been packed by a certificated rigger. They do not provide for reserve packing done under the supervision of a rigger.

The regulations are different than the common practice, and I think for the worse.

I suspect what happened is that when the regulations were rewritten to incorporate tandem jumps, this was one of the unintended changes.

Mark

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generally are riggers into helping people out and training them, or do most riggers look at it as a pain in the ass? I might be working for a DZ full time flying and was thinking on rainy days and such I could be working on the riggers certificate.

You got the right idea, rainy days in the loft with the rigger. I did that for 4 winter seasons before getting the license. Was'nt in a hurry and thought i'd be worthy if I first learned from several riggers and manufacturers. Now I live an endless summer in SoCal and skydiving is year round. Rainy days are rare here, so is my time to teach a person thoroughly. If you got a rigger,loft, and rainy days, you got a good situation. Take them a little food and drink and a good attitude it'll take you far.

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do you have to take one of these rigging courses, or could you just pack 20 reserves with a senior rigger, get a sign off and go take the test?



Yes, that is what I did. Over about a year, almost weekly, at various rigger's lofts/basements learning.

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the courses would be a lot more informative, but they aren't cheap,



Structured = yes. Informative = not if you have good friends as mentors.

and I'm sure working under an very informative rigger can be almost as effective.
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I'm only interested in the back type certificate. also, do you have to pack rounds?



Dude, learn to pack rounds. Not hard at all (the containers can be a bitch due to variations, but folding a round is easy.

Further, I never thought I would use the round packing techniques... Then I jumped a round twice off a bridge into a river... Then I started paragliging again and paragliders use rounds...

Knowledge never hurts. Get it. It can be fun!

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This one I have not seen. Where is that written?



only a certified rigger can pack a live reserve, and a student rigger is not yet a licensed rigger



So if I supervise someone packing a reserve, who is not rated, the rig can't be jumped?
That's not how I read the regulations.



Hmmm.... I was of the same opinion, but have learned to do my homework before arguing with Terry ;)...

Current Regs (stolen from DiverDriver's site... thanks):

Quote

§105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger.

(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger --

(1) Within 120 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(2) Within 60 days before the date of its use, if it is composed of any amount of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or material not specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.



I think to old wording implied otherwise, but this looks pretty cut-n-dried....

(Will have to pull out my old Regs to see why I remember it otherwise...)

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger --



One could argue:

"To Pack" root verb is "To Do".

To Do, does not require solitary or solo involvement per the dictionary definition.

Hence, if the rigger is actively participating, (I.E. Doing with their mind) while the rigger candidate is actively participating (I.E. Doing with their hands) - I think you satisfy the intent of the regs. A rigger cannot leave the room or supervise multiple candidates at the same time with this interpretation of the regulations, whereas they could supervise without active participation multiple packers packing mains... but... they clearly can solicit the assistance of their friends/candidates so as long as they, the certified rigger, are actively participating (i.E. doing mentally) the work.

I have seen a trend lately of riggers extrapolating meaning beyond the actual words in multiple regulations for either their personal gain or to somehow paint the FAA as being overly strict...

I think it is wrong to extrapolate that non-certified individuals cannot participate in the packing based upon the above regulations because the regulations quoted above do not explicitly prohibit assistance from a non-certified individual while the certified rigger does the work, hence why does one assume you can't have assistance and/or work with a non-certified individual as a team??? Nor does the regulation define that have been packed means without assistance... If a non-certified individual folds the fabric while the rigger is watching, then the rigger inspects the work for quality, and takes solitary responsibility for the workmanship, it is as if the rigger did the work with his own hands.

That is my two cents... And an Lawyer and someone familiar with FAA rule making procedures, US Laws, and proper document interpretations agreed with me when I posed this question.

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Oh feel free to quesiton me. I can't even add lately:S

Being 49 and having a 4 week old does that to you.

I think this came up from the FAA inspector that was at Dave DeWolf's course, or maybe not. Anyway I think it was MEL that first brought it up here.

I've been having a PM conversation with another member also.

I'm not against putting student rigger rigs in the air. Hell, every reserve I jumped for three years was a 'student rigger' pack job. MINE!

All of us that didn't go to a course learned this way. But, the position I was stating was the latest FAA version that I had become aware of.

And I think follows the letter of the regs.

To the post above about assistance. Either the student rigger is assisting the rated rigger and the rated rigger logs it. Or the rated rigger is supervising the student rigger and the student logs it. Not sure you get it both ways. Anyway, there is little opportunity for inforcement. But, it's only appropriate for the owner to approve when the name on the card didn't really do it. If they care, too many don't.:S
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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That "supervision" thing has been thrashed over for years. It's an ambiguity caused more by FAA legal speak than by good practice.

In the case of Riglets or any non-rated people doing something like packing reserves or even tandem mains under my supervision - and because it's my signature in the end - it doesn't really matter who actually does the work. If I could train a monkey to pack a reserve (lot's of shocks to the feet and banana pellets) it's still my responsibility and signature on the card.

We had a big go around about this in 1990s. The feds were saying I had to be physically present to oversee the people packing tandem mains at Perris and my argument was once I was comfortable with the job they were doing I could be across the street in the Perris Ghetto getting laid as long as I was available by phone if needed.

And at the same time - the real breech of the rules was anyone was being allowed (and still is) to pack mains for money without being a rigger, or being under any rigger's supervision.

So in reality I could open a loft and never touch a parachute as long as I, as the guy who signed the cards, felt the people I hired off the street could do the job.

The USPA and FAA are stuck in the stone age . . .

NickD :)

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First, there is a difference in the regs between mains and reserves.

Second, the regs changed in 2001 for mains. from "supervision" to "direct supervision". Thank USPA for that, according to Dave DeWolf.

None of this applies to what your comfortable with or what you think the regs should say. Or even what I'm comfortable with or what I think the regs should say.

My comments so far have been about what they say and what new FAA interpretations have come to light.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Okay - What's "Direct Supervision?"

If I'm in the Ghetto sliding my salami into some tandem chick and my guys phone up asking about a worn main loop, or a scuff on a harness, or a hole in a canopy, that does it as far as I'm concerned. If I trust them, I trust them!

You can throw all the FAA BS at me all you want. When I went to take my rigger's test in the early 80s the "clerk" behind the counter at the GADO asked, "Do we give that test?"

NickD :)

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You should also expect to compensate the training rigger. I don't know that I would end up charging a lot less than some of the classes. There are costs for the written and the oral and practical. This is a lot of time, effort, and responsibility for the training rigger.



It can work the other way too... I am getting paid by my rigging mentor. He has enough work for both of us to keep busy. I don't do any repacks for customers, but I've supported myself by spending hours at a sewing machine just learning, and I can make a mean line set.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

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Okay - What's "Direct Supervision?"



The definition is in the prelude to FAR 105.

Basically you have to be present and watching the entire process.


Quote


You can throw all the FAA BS at me all you want. When I went to take my rigger's test in the early 80s the "clerk" behind the counter at the GADO asked, "Do we give that test?"



The problem is that that clerk is now probably retired and the one that now replaces he or she probably knows more about the FAR's and cares to enforce them.

This issue has already been reviewed by the FAA. Their stance is vividly clear that student reserve pack jobs are not legal to jump or use.


Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Recent FAA input has said that STUDENT RIGGER pack jobs can't go into the air. So, what used to be simply a longer version of doing a repack for a customer is now a student excercise only.



The odd contrast to this interpretation is that a master rigger may supervise repairs and alterations done by student riggers, and that it's okay for the repaired/altered articles to be returned to service.

Mark

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generally are riggers into helping people out and training them, or do most riggers look at it as a pain in the ass? I might be working for a DZ full time flying and was thinking on rainy days and such I could be working on the riggers certificate.



Depends Derek... do you resemble a hot chick? ;) Just kidding. I've found that most are more than willing to help. After all, knowledge is power and saves lives.

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aerialkinetics.com

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