Unstable 8 #1 March 17, 2008 I don't know if this belongs in the Incidents Forum, but IMHO since it seems to be caused by gear issues, I'll post here. Mods, feel free to move it as your little hearts desire. Today at our dropzone, and experienced jumper was jumping his canopy in our Transition Rig. He was jumping a Pilot 190 at roughly a 1.3 Wing loading. He had a Student Cypres II. Long story short - about 800' AGL his cypres Fired as he did a right 90 turn onto his downwind leg. I went this evening to pick up the Rig. I was suprised to find the cutter unit broken where the Metal section attaches to the plastic section.(See pictures attached) One of the internal wires of the cutter was broken completely, and I can only guess that a short caused the fire at 800'. My gut reaction was that a torque force while packed caused this. When I pulled the unit out, the unit's cutter was centered in it's elastic keeper, no signs of forces tugging it left or right. Have any of you riggers seen this before? I'm sending the unit into Airtec tomorrow - but I wanted to see if this has happened before...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badlock 0 #2 March 17, 2008 Just a guess: One day, I wanted to cut a Cutter off an old, expired Cypres 1 to do some tests. The cutter fired when I cut its cable (maybe due to some kind of short circuit). Maybe a similar short circuit (because of the broken Cutter) was the reason for this misfire? And maybe the cutter was damaged during packing. And when the container was a little bit streched during a turn or something, the cutter broke down completely and produced the short circuit. As I said: Just a guess (but with the background of my own experience I mentioned above). Don't be a Lutz! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #3 March 17, 2008 FWIW when I pack a reserve I don't recall ever putting pressure on that area of the cypress unit. The torgue usually happens around the cutter since that is where the loop goes through the unit. Of couse this assumes that the cypress hole lines up with the grommet in the rig. If the holes didn't line up then perhaps it could create enough torque to damage the cypress although I haven't ever seen this scenario. For that to happen the hole would have to be really offset from the grommet and a closing tool would have to be used to really provide some force. Based on such a hard closing force I would hope that the rigger would recognize a problem.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #4 March 17, 2008 I packed it myself. It's a Student Javelin, and a very easy-fitting container for that Reserve canopy, and the grommets line up perfectly. Like I said before, there are or were not any signs of torque on the cutter unit.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #5 March 17, 2008 Quote I don't know if this belongs in the Incidents Forum, but IMHO since it seems to be caused by gear issues, I'll post here. Mods, feel free to move it as your little hearts desire. Today at our dropzone, and experienced jumper was jumping his canopy in our Transition Rig. He was jumping a Pilot 190 at roughly a 1.3 Wing loading. He had a Student Cypres II. Long story short - about 800' AGL his cypres Fired as he did a right 90 turn onto his downwind leg. I went this evening to pick up the Rig. I was suprised to find the cutter unit broken where the Metal section attaches to the plastic section.(See pictures attached) One of the internal wires of the cutter was broken completely, and I can only guess that a short caused the fire at 800'. My gut reaction was that a torque force while packed caused this. When I pulled the unit out, the unit's cutter was centered in it's elastic keeper, no signs of forces tugging it left or right. Have any of you riggers seen this before? I'm sending the unit into Airtec tomorrow - but I wanted to see if this has happened before... Could it have broken after it fired? Student Cypres fires at 13 meters a sec or 29mph. Maybe a good hard turn on a 1.3 loaded Pilot could caused it to fire? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #6 March 17, 2008 Has anyone ever heard of a unit breaking after or during the fire? The Unit was out of my control and sight for several hours while jumpers at the Dropzone inspected it themselves.... I think realistically this also could have happened after the cutaway by people poking around....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #7 March 17, 2008 Quote Has anyone ever heard of a unit breaking after or during the fire? The Unit was out of my control and sight for several hours while jumpers at the Dropzone inspected it themselves.... I think realistically this also could have happened after the cutaway by people poking around.... Sure Airtec will be able to get the data off the unit and be able to tell if it fired because it was suppose to or if it fired because of a broken/shorted cutter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 March 17, 2008 Quote Maybe a good hard turn on a 1.3 loaded Pilot could caused it to fire? Yes it can without a doubt, see it happen last fall with a big guy borrowing a student rig and a WL the same, same canopy.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #9 March 17, 2008 QuoteYes it can without a doubt, see it happen last fall with a big guy borrowing a student rig and a WL the same, same canopy. Huh. Thanks you for that bit of info...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #10 March 17, 2008 Well you need to know the full deal, big guy 230 without gear + 15 or so for gear =1.3 WL, using borrowed student rig. We both jumped on last load of day in a hurry because two other climb out of plane after loading. Not thinking about the student AAD, I forgot to remind my friend about it, and he didn't think about it himself. We pulled off a 2 way from 5K and went head down for a few before rolling over into a 2 way belly and smoked it down passed 2.5 when we broke off, conatiners were open by 2K and the pilot sniviled someting good. I had a front row seat and saw the whole thing, after flying open for a good while jumper did two hard turns and POP went the Cypres, jumper turned to final with PC in tow. Moral of story, don't smoke it down with your add turned on and trip it's brain into thinking your going in and then do hard turns under highly loaded canopy with student AAD armed, because it will fire. And yes having every non rigging Tom, Dick & Harry messing around with said rig after can cause the cutter to get broken and you can bet no one will own up to it. In other words most likely it fired because of the turn and then was broken by being "looked over" after the fact IMHO. But you won't know for sure untill you send the unit to SSK.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 March 17, 2008 Quote...The Unit was out of my control and sight for several hours while jumpers at the Dropzone inspected it themselves.... I think realistically this also could have happened after the cutaway by people poking around.... Forgive me for I am not a rigger... Every one of those idiots should be slapped and slapped hard for touching it in any way, shape or form. Hopefully you will educate them for future incidents.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #12 March 17, 2008 Not knowing the type of rig; is the cutter, one positioned in the bottom of the packtray, or positioned at the top under the closing flap?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #13 March 17, 2008 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3154750#3154750 Student jav. On bottom.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #14 March 17, 2008 I do think the first step is to have the cypres data read and figure out if the unit intended to fire the cutter. If it attempted to do so and the cutter fired successfully then I'd be led to believe it was broken after the fact. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #15 March 17, 2008 How'd I skip completely over that? More coffee. thks Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #16 March 17, 2008 Done it a time or two myself.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 March 17, 2008 Remember that a Student Cypres has two firing modes. The first firing mode activates when you are below 1,000 feet and exceeding 29 miles per hour. This approximates the descent rate of a partially malfunctioned Manta. The second firing mode is at 750 feet, and exceeding 78 mph. Sorry, but that Cypres fired within the placarded limits. Slap ... er ... re-educate the goof who loaded it at 1.4 and did steep turns below 1,000 feet. As for the cracked cable: I have never seen that before. Write that off to goofs "fondling" it before a rigger examined it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #18 March 17, 2008 QuoteAs for the cracked cable: I have never seen that before. Write that off to goofs "fondling" it before a rigger examined it. I can't help but wonder if it was caused by the forces of the unit firing in the first place...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #19 March 17, 2008 Quote Remember that a Student Cypres has two firing modes. The first firing mode activates when you are below 1,000 feet and exceeding 29 miles per hour. This approximates the descent rate of a partially malfunctioned Manta. The second firing mode is at 750 feet, and exceeding 78 mph. As an aside, While this is definitely the case of how the Cypres is documented, and is clearly what Airtec wants to communicate, I wonder if it's actually the case. My curiosity stems from the fact that Cypreses work on air pressure, and when in a belly-to-earth position, the Cypres is in a low-pressure environment. In order to get a Cypres to fire at 750 Feet BTE, I suspect they program it to fire at roughly 1000 feet in a "normal" pressure environment. We see evidence of this when Cypres's fire at often 'higher' altitudes mid-snivel - often at roughly 1000 feet. So while Airtec says that a student Cypres will fire: 750 feet @ 78 MPH (BTE) 1000 feet @ 29 MPH (vertical). I suspect that both are actually the same altitude. 750 feet BTE is approximately 1000 feet standing up. That means that there is only one effective student activation altitude, which is 1000 feet standing up or 750 BTE - and the activation speed at that altitude is 29 MPH. Thus, the only difference between the student and Expert models are the activation speed at the single altitude. Either way - just to reinforce - Student Cypreses do not fire higher. They may have a second (lower) altitude at a lower speed, but I suspect the real difference is that they fire at a slower speed at the same altitude. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badlock 0 #20 March 17, 2008 QuoteQuote Remember that a Student Cypres has two firing modes. The first firing mode activates when you are below 1,000 feet and exceeding 29 miles per hour. This approximates the descent rate of a partially malfunctioned Manta. The second firing mode is at 750 feet, and exceeding 78 mph. As an aside, While this is definitely the case of how the Cypres is documented, and is clearly what Airtec wants to communicate, I wonder if it's actually the case. My curiosity stems from the fact that Cypreses work on air pressure, and when in a belly-to-earth position, the Cypres is in a low-pressure environment. In order to get a Cypres to fire at 750 Feet BTE, I suspect they program it to fire at roughly 1000 feet in a "normal" pressure environment. We see evidence of this when Cypres's fire at often 'higher' altitudes mid-snivel - often at roughly 1000 feet. So while Airtec says that a student Cypres will fire: 750 feet @ 78 MPH (BTE) 1000 feet @ 29 MPH (vertical). I suspect that both are actually the same altitude. 750 feet BTE is approximately 1000 feet standing up. That means that there is only one effective student activation altitude, which is 1000 feet standing up or 750 BTE - and the activation speed at that altitude is 29 MPH. Thus, the only difference between the student and Expert models are the activation speed at the single altitude. Either way - just to reinforce - Student Cypreses do not fire higher. They may have a second (lower) altitude at a lower speed, but I suspect the real difference is that they fire at a slower speed at the same altitude. _Am I don't think that the used alogirthms are so simple as you describe (speculate). The fact that fires during low pulls occur at around 1000 ft. doesn't means - for example - that the only difference between an Cypres Expert and an Cypres Student is the activation speed. With other words: The second criteria will be a special designed algorithm and not the thumb rule "it will certainly fit" (...if we change only the activation speed). It is designed that way - to fire in case of low speed mals under canopy. Additionally, when talking about this incident, a major aspect has to be considered: How solid is the information that the Cypres fired at 800 ft.? The point is: There are better measuring instruments out there than humans reading altimeters (or guess altitude) while loosing altitude. I know from a study that said that humans tend to make height-measure/-guessing/failures around a couple of hundret feets. Don't be a Lutz! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #21 March 17, 2008 I have replaced a number cutters in the field and never have I found one broken due to firing, and as a side note couple of them were in Student Jav's. Now that's not saying it can't happen for some strange reason, cuz anything is possible, but history tells me that is damage due to mis handling before or after install of unit, not unit firing itself.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushboy 0 #22 March 21, 2008 I'm curious..was the battery in the unit when you "cut" the cutter? If so, it might have been a short created when the cutter closed the loop of the circuit. If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #23 March 21, 2008 Did the jumper do a nice PLF on landing? Might the cutter have ben damaged in contact with the ground? Just a thought. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,397 #24 March 21, 2008 >I can only guess that a short caused the fire at 800'. Generally, shorting the two wires going to a cutter together will _disable_ the cutter, not cause it to fire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #25 March 22, 2008 Quote Now that's not saying it can't happen for some strange reason, cuz anything is possible you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
