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gofastrlbrown

Reflex Repacking

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and If I can do it and make it look nice, then any rigger can.



Yea, you might want to rethink that statement, seen many riggers refuse to do them & seen more then one shitty job done and twice I've seen the pilot chute fabric stuffed up under the pop top cover cap.:S:o:S

Your right if one would RTFM and follow it & then allow about two to three days to reseat the poptop, they are pretty easy.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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What should I do, look for a new container. How much money would I be looking at to convert every thing to a new container. I have a good main, reserve, and a cypres. Am I going to have a hard time getting someone to pack it. I am ignorant as I have just finished AFF.
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It is strange, the more I practice, the better I get!

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I have no trouble getting mine repacked. No rigger has ever turned it down. I know there is TONS!!! of controversy, but I see real merit in the Catapult system if you ever have a horseshoe malfunction. The inventor posts on this forum occasionally.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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I've had one rigger refuse to pack my reflex. Other than that, no problems finding riggers. Ask around at your dropzone who people use for their repacks... especially any reflex owners you can find, or racer owners. But chances are you won't have a problem. Reflexes aren't bad rigs... only issue I have had with mine was a rigger that didn't get the pop top seated well, so reserve pilot chute fabric started sticking out (which got me kicked off a plane). Other than that, never had any flaps come open or anything like that, that I know of.

Dave

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Simple answer: look around your DZ. If a jumper has a pretty looking Racer or Reflex, ask him/her who packed it last. Then take your business to that rigger.

Reflexes may be slightly more difficult to repack, but it is mainly a question of education. Every rig requires a slightly different technique.That means every rigger must learn a new technique for every new rig.

For example, I struggled for a couple of years to make Reflexes look pretty, until I got a couple of lessons from Iron Mike: the demo packer for the Reflex factory.
The biggest difference with Reflexes is that they were one of the first containers to shift bulk towards the top edge. This is vaguely described in the packing manual, but to make a Reflex look graceful, you really need to discard a few wedge (Vector, original Talon, Javelin, etc.) techniques to focus on making the top edge thicker.
Now that Mirage G4 and Voodoo containers are thick across the top, Reflex techniques can be transferred.

Mike gave me a few pointers about loose folding the Catapult to "bulk out" the top edge of the reserve container, to help "submerge" the top edge of the Pop-Top. I have never gotten graceful bulk distribution without the catapult.

Mike never really explained the whole bulk distribution issue, but I learned the hard way why the factory says to V-fold the bridle along the edges to increase bulk beside the pilot chute.
I also learned to put way more bulk across the top edge.

As for the brain-dead, red-neck riggers - who stuffed Reflex pilot chute mesh and fabric between the composite cap and the cosmetic cloth cap - they had to be truly clueless to pack a reserve pilot chute substantially differently than every other manufacturer recommends!
Hint, all the other manufacturers say to stuff, fold, roll, etc. pilot chute mesh and fabric near the spring.

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I dont know if it's legal for a non rigger to tighten the cord that seats the pop top closer to the container, but my rigger showed me how to do it. It is really easy and keeps it snug as the repack settles in. I like my Reflex and think it is a well designed container. You will find MUCH controversy about the Catapult system, but I believe it enhances the chance of getting a reserve out in a horseshoe malfunction. Others see it as a safety hazard. There are sharp riggers on both sides of the controversy.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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As for the brain-dead, red-neck riggers - who stuffed Reflex pilot chute mesh and fabric between the composite cap and the cosmetic cloth cap - they had to be truly clueless to pack a reserve pilot chute substantially differently than every other manufacturer recommends!
Hint, all the other manufacturers say to stuff, fold, roll, etc. pilot chute mesh and fabric near the spring.



That'd be the guy I bought my Reflex from! He had one catapult save, and at least one more improperly packed reserve pilot chute found after the first incident. I didn't know why he was such a big fan of the catapult system until I found the true story on rec.skydiving.

Are racer reserve pilot chutes packed the same way?

Dave

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As for the brain-dead, red-neck riggers - who stuffed Reflex pilot chute mesh and fabric between the composite cap and the cosmetic cloth cap - they had to be truly clueless to pack a reserve pilot chute substantially differently than every other manufacturer recommends!
Hint, all the other manufacturers say to stuff, fold, roll, etc. pilot chute mesh and fabric near the spring.



No, on the Racer the hat is sewn to the top of the reserve pilot chute. The mesh and fabric is gathered into the coils of the spring as it's compressed. There's no chance of putting it between the hat and the pilot chute.

That'd be the guy I bought my Reflex from! He had one catapult save, and at least one more improperly packed reserve pilot chute found after the first incident. I didn't know why he was such a big fan of the catapult system until I found the true story on rec.skydiving.

Are racer reserve pilot chutes packed the same way?

Dave


Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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First, I'm a master rigger and bought a Reflex new in 1997 after looking at them at the 1997 PIA symposium. I have the catapult secondary PC on mine. If I could find another one in the right size I'd buy another one.

There are riggers who won't pack on because someone else can tighten the loop after it leaves the riggers hands. Only the Reflex and in most cases a Racer allow this. No one but a rigger should tighten the loop(s) and many/most riggers believe that only the original rigger should tighten the loop(s). If another rigger does tighten it they should record the work in their logbook and on the packing data card.

There are other riggers who may pack the Reflex but not install the catapult secondary PC. At first it was required. Later it became optional. Many rigs have something to try to do the same thing. Often the are pockets on the bridle made of nylon and designed in theory to catch air. Years ago another manufacturer tried something similar but had the bridle going up through the center of the PC. This didn't allow it to swivel to catch the wind. I believe the catapult will help more people than it will hurt, like many aspects of gear.

Rigges who can't figure out how to pack one are just bad riggers. Riggers who won't pack on simply have their own opinion. The are a little different in that you bend the PC spring in half and set the reserve pin before getting the loop anywhere near tight. I actually find closing a Reflex easier than most rigs.

You should be able to get yours packed easily. Not every rigger will pack it. But there are other things that I won't pack. Just because it's a Reflex is no reason to get rid of it. If you don't like it, that's a different story.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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>I actually find closing a Reflex easier than most rigs.

I agree. It's nice to be able to tighten everything down _after_ the rig is closed.



Agreed X 3. We don't see them much in NC anymore, but I've always found them fun and easy to pack.

I do remember a frustrating time with a very small Reflex in my earlier days where the top part of the pin was inaccessible after closing, making it a challenge to apply my seal thread. I later found a manual addendum warning about that very issue.

So, to any new Reflex riggers out there: make sure you'll have access above the top of the pin after closing. If not, larksheading your seal thread on there before inserting the ripcord will definitely save you a headache!

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where the top part of the pin was inaccessible after closing



That is true for only the small ones, but your right if you don't notice that it can be a drag, but you won't forget that the next time.:)
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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but I see real merit in the Catapult system if you ever have a horseshoe malfunction. The inventor posts on this forum occasionally.



So, who is the *inventor* of the secondary pilot chute? Does he still support the system?

For those who support the catapult, I would like to know your thoughts on the Cross Keys fatality on a Reflex. Is it,"some safety equipment will cause failures elsewhere? like the RSL, AADs, etc?

I would just like to hear peoples opinion one way or the other.

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Rigger Mick if your asking about the reflex system.
I don't know enough about the x-keys to comment.
I think as with any system you have a 50/50 chance it will work each and everytime you step out the door!

As for my thoughts on the reflex and catapult PC, well it can't hurt to have help if you find yourself with a reserve PC wrapped around your leg or other body part or rig part, the same idea as little pockets added to assist in drag and why the bridle is so wide, drag. More people have been saved with the system then those that have bounced because of it. Regardless what I think, it's still a crap shoot each time we leave the aircraft just might be the last one, we all know this, only some are in denial about it.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Hi strato,

A year or so ago Mick sent me a DVD of some of the testing on the Catapult ( do not ask where it is right now, but it is somewhere in this house :S ).

The DVD showed a number of tests with horseshoes, cutaways, totals, etc. It showed that the Catapult worked really well if a little time consuming ( but, hey in a horseshow what else have you got B| )
and in a total or cutaway, the Catapult had no effect on the normal deployment of the system.

I cannot see any downside to the Catapult although there is some negative feeling about them; based on what, I have no idea.

Now, as for the wide bridle actually deploying your rig; well, I would not count on that, and that includes the 3" bridle as used by JumpShack.

Just my old 2 cents,

JerryBaumchen

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Now, as for the wide bridle actually deploying your rig; well, I would not count on that



Well I didn't really say that for the record, I was only talking about the idea behind the wide bridle.;)
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Yea, you might want to rethink that statement, seen many riggers refuse to do them & seen more then one shitty job done and twice I've seen the pilot chute fabric stuffed up under the pop top cover cap.Crazy



Like RiggerRob pointed out, a lot of that is just 'tricks' you need to learn, but for the most part, it's just a lazy rigger that let's a rig looking like shit leave his loft. RTFM, they are great. Most of the Tricks are in the manual.

I think peregrinerose & I would get along. I just sold my Racer 2K3 to a jumper here at the Dropzone with a Fresh Repack. My New 2K3 should ship sometime next week - I think Racers are the shit. :)
=========Shaun ==========


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Thanks everybody for the comments. I believe I will keep my Reflex, it is in awesome shape. I'll say to heck with the bad attitudes towards it. It is like it was pointed out earlier, we always face a chance of a bounce in a horseshoe malfunction.
GOFAST
It is strange, the more I practice, the better I get!

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So, who is the *inventor* of the secondary pilot chute? Does he still support the system?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry, but Mickey Cottle has moved on to other businesses.

Replacement Reflex freebags with catapults are still available from Ray Ferrell/Action Air/Bomber Sports Wear/Trident Manufacturing in Davis, California.

I am not clear on who invented the Catapult. Yes, Mickey Cottle was the first to incorporate a secondary pilot chute into a sport rig, but around the same time, FXC Guardian installed a similar auxiliary pilot chute in their Mach III Alpha military freefall container.

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Dangerous to show a non-rigger how to adjust anything on a reserve!

Adjustable loops are standard on most Pop-Tops and optional on almost anything else. Racers were the first to introduce Quick-Loops in the early 1980s. Back then the fashionable material was un-coated Kevlar suspension line. The only material change has been to un-coated Spectra. Uncoated is important. If you make the mistake of applying silicone grease - as per the Cypres manual - the adjustable loop will slip and will have to be discarded. Similarly, tools with too much silicone on them can make adjustable loops too slippery.

Thomas Sports Equipment were the first to install adjustable loops on single-pin Tear Drops, and the Reflex pilot chute is just a copy of the Teardrop pilot chute.
Circa 2000, a rigger in Lodi, California started installing adjustable loops in Vector, Javelin, Mirage, etc. The logic was that a Master Rigger was allowed to substitute similar TSOed components.
CSPA's Technical Committee developed a bad attitude towards Lodi Loops, though they never explained why?????
Perhaps it was out of fear that non-riggers would tighten them too much????

I am not sure if Lodi Loops are still used in California, but I recently inspected a batch of old tandem rigs from Lodi and they all had Lodi Loops.

However, adjustable closing loops should only be adjusted by a rigger ... preferably the last rigger to sign the card. Letting anyone else tighten a closing loop risks bent pins, dented grommets, cracked stiffeners, torn flaps or obscenely hard pulls.

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