1 1
NWFlyer

Passed out under canopy: watch those leg straps!

Recommended Posts

Quote

The problem here is that if you don't move your legs enough to create this flow, blood tends to slow down and the possibility of forming blood clots increases (some people are more prone to form clots than others).... I'm not expert in the medicine field, but if that what you really experienced, then you are the luckiest person I have ever known. Blood clots are NO JOKE.



Blood clots in 10-15 minutes of canopy time? That's a new one on me. Anybody with professional experience want to comment?
.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Now, this is a REAL and SERIOUS problem.

I agree that DVT's are a problem, but with the amount of motion a typical skydive entails, and the short time periods involved, it's not a major one. More likely issues:

1. If blood pools in your legs due to any of a number of factors (tight leg straps, crouching in the plane etc) it becomes very deoxygenated, and there can be a lot of it. If that is released suddenly, your lungs may not be able to oxygenate it fully, especially at higher altitudes. This can lead to hypoxia-like symptoms. (This happens to me 10-15 secs after exit when I'm crouching a long time.)

2. Increased blood storage in your legs (due to tight leg straps) can reduce your blood pressure enough to compromise bloodflow to your brain, which after all is the highest point in your circulatory system (especially right after opening.) Combine this with a change from a belly position and you have the possibility of sudden loss of blood pressure that can cause those same hypoxia-like symptoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unlikely that it was due to a blood clot. Not impossible, but she would need to have other risk factors, such as:

Trauma to the lower limbs (actual fractures in plaster cast in particular)
Hereditary or acquired coagulation disorder
http://www.ucy.ac.cy/~deltas/cyprusgmd/diseases/Thrombo.htm
Use of oral contraceptives, hormone replacement therapy, esp. in smokers
Previous venous thrombosis
Pregnancy and the postpartum period (6 weeks)
Cancer in an active phase

But even still it would be VERY UNLIKELY that this would have been due to blood clots.

The most likely answer is still venous pooling in the lower extremities causing a hypotensive episode. Bvillon has some good points too to add to the hypoxia.

Karen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I don't want to pull anyone down but the posting about blood clots was really a little over the top and controversial for my liking. There is no doubt in my mind that this had absolutely nothing to do with her fainting. Deep venous thromboses need time to develop and it is unlikely this would happen in the time it takes to jump, open canopy and land. And then the thrombus would need to embolize ........ highly unlikely.

In addition - thrombotic emboli from the legs veins very rarely cause heart attacks or brain strokes. In tha case of heart attacks the thrombus develops in situ in the coronary artery in an individual who has severe athersclerosis of these arteries. And clots to the brain invariably arise from either the heart in someone who has atrial fibrillation or from the neck arteries. An embolus from the veins in the leg would have to pass through the lung vessels before getting into the arterial side of the body, pass back through the heart and then onto the brain. Impossible.

I agree with Bill - good post. And Karen.

The post I am alluding to is nothing less than scare mongering and does not really belong in a forum of this nature - it may cause unnecessary stress to the person who initiated this thread. I hope she has the wisdom to read the posts following this one so as to allay her fears.

Please be a little more sensitive in your posts and be sure of the facts. ;)


Take care
Cheers
Rich (Doc)
---------------------------------------
Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>The post I am alluding to is nothing less than scare mongering . . .

I'm sure he meant well.

It is, however, a good reminder that the advice given on this forum should not be treated as authoritative. You can pick up some good information here, but do NOT assume that it is the final word on the subject. Always check with your instructor, S+TA or someone you trust before applying skydiving advice received here. And I hope it goes without saying that a doctor should always be consulted before taking any medical advice from anyone here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>The post I am alluding to is nothing less than scare mongering . . .

I'm sure he meant well.

It is, however, a good reminder that the advice given on this forum should not be treated as authoritative. You can pick up some good information here, but do NOT assume that it is the final word on the subject. Always check with your instructor, S+TA or someone you trust before applying skydiving advice received here. And I hope it goes without saying that a doctor should always be consulted before taking any medical advice from anyone here.



Absolutely, Bill, that's why I've also been sharing the results of my discussions with my own doc, to make sure it's clear that I'm not just relying on info from here. As helpful as the info from Karen and Rich and others has been, I've used it to supplement/inform my discussions with my doc, not to replace them.

I posted this thread to learn if others had heard of something like this, to inform others that this is a possibility, and to get opinions. Not as medical treatment.

I worked for three years on a web site that contained medical information and that linked medical professionals to their patients, so I'm very sensitive to these issues. I appreciate your reminder to the folks here. :)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't know how many people I have talked to about this but everyone seems to agree(including the people on her load)that this jumper did not pass out under canopy. Rather she took a bad spot on a cross country and landed out. Seems very, very fishy that she would come around at 25 to 50 feet above the ground with just enough time to flare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't know how many people I have talked to about this but everyone seems to agree(including the people on her load)that this jumper did not pass out under canopy. Rather she took a bad spot on a cross country and landed out. Seems very, very fishy that she would come around at 25 to 50 feet above the ground with just enough time to flare.



Damn, I knew I should have shown up at the K&K last night to defend my honor. :P
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

but everyone seems to agree(including the people on her load)that this jumper did not pass out under canopy.



Several people on her load told me that you farted on jump run and they passed out, too. That explains the "bad spot" pretty well, too, since the pilot was blinded.

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just to set the record straight. We all have unique situations in this sport, some more unique then others. I very well believe that this jumper had this experience, all of our bodies are different and react to different situations. My point was not to state that this person didn't have this situation but rather to make a joke out of all the replies on this web site, a lot of the time they are so out in left field that it is comical. I am very happy that this jumper landed safely without any mishaps or injuries and hope that she never has this happen to her again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been in the same situation as NWFlyer 2-3-4 times... Everything way OK until I opened - then nausea kicked in big time. I was able to land the Springo 140 I was jumping at the time, but I do not think I would have been able to stay concious for more than 30 secs longer - I'd just fade out. Of course, went to see the doctor the next day, but all the results were OK - apparently I was (and still am) healthy as an ox (if that's the correct phrase). So I did some surfing, and found a thread here, that was describing exactly the same thing that happened to me...

In my case, the combination of following factors caused the situation: tight harness/legstraps, kneebrace I wear, crouched/tight body position for a period of time (C-185, and I'm 6 ft tall), spiralling under the canopy. I also do not like having a big breakfast before jumping - that might have "helped" too (although, I never jump on empty stomach either).

After reading the abovementioned thread, I've started to do the following:
a) move my legs on the ride up as much as possible (which is not much in a C-185, but even a little helps maintaining the blood flow)
b) avoid - if anyway possible - sitting behind the pilot: that's the place with the least amount of legspace available;
c) I move my legs in bicycling (spelling?) motion when under canopy;
d) go easy on the spiralling thing :);
e) if I jump without my RW suit, I fasten the kneebrace straps just before the exit;
f) drink a lot of water all day long.

And yes, I felt like a newborn when I got a rig that fits me well... The old rig was too small, and has had the buckles on the rear side of the legstraps...

Hope this helps...


Regards,
Huha (>o<-<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I had my first two high altitude rides (9000 and 10,000 feet) and really enjoyed them. However, after exiting a longer than usual spiral (About 6 or 7 revolutions), I did notice my legs almost start to fall asleep at 4000 feet!

I just grabbed both left and right risers and lifted myself a little for about 3 or 4 seconds to relieve pressure. That fixed the problem instantly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I noticed that after about 500 feet under canopy today, my legs were falling asleep. I just switched from an Icon to a notably smaller Javelin, so the leg straps were of both a different size and design. The only way I was able to keep them awake was by crossing my legs and bending my knees 90 degrees until about 50 feet above the ground. Nonetheless, fast turns hurt enough that I yelled out on a few occasions.

The funny thing is that by about 3,500 feet, all I could think about was this thread. :D
I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scary stuff !!! about 6 years back I blacked out out of the blue and woke up to people freaking out and the ambalence on the way. this came out of the blue and started to happen about every 3 months until they put a pacemaker in me. this all happened 5 years before I started skydiving and I have been jumping a little over a year now. the pacer keeps track of when it goes off (stopping the black out ) my conclusion after viewing the data is THC seems to cause it to go off ten fold, I dont know if thats a concern and I`m only refering to my history, but a tilt table made the issue clear as I passed out within 5 minutes. this is a serious issue you need to address and it dosent have to end jumping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This old thread about one of NWFlyer's early "adventures" seemed an appropriate place to add another data point about losing functional consciousness under canopy:

I was in a CRW formation last year, holding a 2-stack for what must have been over 10 minutes.
(We got docked at say 10,000' while flying tandem canopies solo, after dropping our passengers, but that's another story.)

The other jumper docked at the top of my canopy had his legs pulled back behind him, while he had his ankles hooked into the top of my center A lines. As we descended more, he mentioned some discomfort but wanted to keep going, as he's a pretty tough guy when it comes to jumping. Hell, he was doing CRW in sandals on an HMA lined canopy.

At a couple thousand feet he broke the formation, letting go, so I figured he didn't want to land the stack. While I set up for landing, I didn't pay attention to him as he sailed off into the distance, finally turning around to just make it back to the main landing area. For at least 5 minutes after landing, he was really groggy and just stayed sitting down on the grass.

It seemed to all have been from hanging in the one body position for so long, unable to move his legs, and leaning forward against the leg straps. He wasn't able to realize what was happening, and was no longer functionally conscious. I don't know what exactly his state was, but it was semi-conscious at best, as he relaxed his grip on my canopy and went sailing off into the sunset (or actually 90 degrees to it) until he woke up enough to steer for home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Valsalva manuever or corotid sinus massage is not to increase blood pressure! It is used to simulate the vagas nerve and slow down the heart rate...do not do this to yourself, EVER! Unless you are naked with a hot chick and you want to see what happens...but not during a sky dive!

If you truly want to rule out the harness and leg straps being too tight, it's rather simple. Put the harness on and cinch it up just as you were wearing it. Wear it for as long as you were under canopy and have someone log your HR and B/P at each point that you think you had symptoms. If you repeat the similar symptoms, in anyway, it was the harness that stimulated this issue. That would not be the end of it for me. I would want an EKG with the harness on and the vital signs documented. Go to a local Fire Station and tell one of the Paramedics there what happened and what you want to do. They will hook you up, no problem!

Get the information and if you find that you have vital signs that either show a decreased blood pressure of more than 10 points or an increase in your heart rate by more than 10 points, you need a cardiac workup from a cardiologist.

Peace Brother!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The Valsalva manuever or corotid sinus massage is not to increase blood pressure! It is used to simulate the vagas nerve and slow down the heart rate...do not do this to yourself, EVER! Unless you are naked with a hot chick and you want to see what happens...but not during a sky dive!

If you truly want to rule out the harness and leg straps being too tight, it's rather simple. Put the harness on and cinch it up just as you were wearing it. Wear it for as long as you were under canopy and have someone log your HR and B/P at each point that you think you had symptoms. If you repeat the similar symptoms, in anyway, it was the harness that stimulated this issue. That would not be the end of it for me. I would want an EKG with the harness on and the vital signs documented. Go to a local Fire Station and tell one of the Paramedics there what happened and what you want to do. They will hook you up, no problem!

Get the information and if you find that you have vital signs that either show a decreased blood pressure of more than 10 points or an increase in your heart rate by more than 10 points, you need a cardiac workup from a cardiologist.

Peace Brother!



You would need to be hanging in the harness of course to simulate the pressures from being under canopy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>The Valsalva manuever or corotid sinus massage is not to increase blood pressure!

We're talking about two different things here.

Valsalva manuever - forcibly exhaling against a closed airway. Commonly done by pinching your nose and blowing; this can help deal with 'plugged ears' due to increasing external pressure. SCUBA divers use this pretty often. It also temporarily increases blood pressure.

Carotid sinus massage - manual manipulation of the carotid sinus body, sometimes done diagnostically to diagnose SVT. Probably a bad idea any time you're relying on sufficient blood pressure.

They are very different manuevers. The only thing they have in common is that they're both sometimes used to diagnose SVT's.

>Put the harness on and cinch it up just as you were wearing it. Wear it for
> as long as you were under canopy and have someone log your HR and
>B/P at each point that you think you had symptoms.

As this does not simulate the pressure on your legstraps during normal descent (or during high-G manuevers during spirals) and does not simulate the lower ppO2 at higher altitudes it's not that useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2014, Easter weekend..  I was doing a hop and pop. Everything felt great prior to jumping. I did not party the night before, I was hydrated and everything. I jumped out, did my checks and next thing you know I passed out. I remember seeing the DZ and I was above a cloud. It was beautiful. 

 

I was in and out.. I remember briefly waking up, seeing the sunset and people around me and then lost consciousness. I woke up again for a few seconds and I was in a helicopter. Lost consciousness again and finally woke up in the hospital with people taking off my wig. lmao.  It's a miracle that I did not die and had no broken bones. All I had was  a severe concussion and a few torn ligaments that required therapy. 

 

All of my friends panicked and raised money for me :( They thought the worse. From what I was told, the pilot was made aware of me passing out, they said I began to head towards a forest.. and I was going downwind, I went through the trees and then I just dropped. I have no idea how high this was.. We concluded that it was my safety straps and possibly my helmet. It was my first time with a closed face helmet. Upon opening I immediately felt dizzy but, I tried to stay calm. After my checks I felt I was about to puke, and I could not breathe and I began to panic a little.  It was clear my straps were the problem though because I had bruises. I think there were a few tandems on that plane and I really hope I did not scare them. I believe this was jump #55. A lot of people thought I faked passing out which is beyond me. Why would I fake something like that.. we know there are assholes everywhere but, God shielded me that day. 

 

After the incident.. I believe it was about 3 months later I decided to get back up there. I did a few tandems to make sure I did not pass out, did my check dive and then I was cleared to jump solo again. I jumped  10 more times and it's safe to say I am no longer jumping. Unless I do a tandem with my boyfriend or I'm indoors. but, mother trucker. It's safe to say I have lived . I donated my helmet to ( I forgot her name but, she turns helmets into works of art).  Stay safe out there friends!! <3 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1