Wing Loading at 1.3

[TLob456 0]

I have been flying a Precision Aerodynamics Nitron for about 15 jumps now and love it. I am relatively new to the sport with around 100 jumps when I got the canopy(I also have a Sabre 150 for more conservative flights) but had two very experienced master riggers suggest the Nitron to me. I was about to purchase a new Nitron 150 when my rigger at the time talked me into getting a used 135 as he stated they are designed for a higher wing loading than a 150 would provide me. I am wondering whether this seems a far too aggressive canopy for someone of my skill range. I have very good canopy control, have never botched a landing, and am not intending to get into swooping any time soon. I feel comfortable under the canopy and enjoy the ride. I'd like some more opinions as I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit. Thanks for the time and advice. Blue Skies!

[sparkie 0]

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I'd like some more opinions as I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit. Thanks for the time and advice. Blue Skies!

well, you came to the right place, postings with stuff like "wingloading"or "Downsize" do very well here.

In holland where i jump, we can go to wl 1,3 after 100 jumps but only a 150sqft minimum.

Not sure in what cat if would fall here, i guess in cat 3, same as the sabre2.

My own parameters for downsizing yes or no are simple:

I want to feel completely comfortable under my current canopy, meaning that I dont actively have to think about whats above my head and no matter what happens and where i have to land, I feel comfortable doing it.

The best advice giver is you, ultimately. If you are bent on doing something one simply tends to fish out desirable advice on forums and disregard the not so desirable advice.

Usually the guys with tons of jumps will give solid advice though. But none (most of the time) of them have actually seen you jump. Some guys can handle a bit more juice in a canopy but others with more jumps perhaps can not. No one here can see which one you are.

Do some neutral self reflection and combine that with the advice here, then decide.

[davelepka 4]

You're pushing it. The WL is on the high side, and any canopy under a 150 will have shorter lines which speeds up the reaction of the canopy to control input. On the surface this may sound good, but in practice, it makes it easy to over-control the canopy.

It's been said before, if you push the WL things will be fine, as long as everything goes according to plan. If you should encounter some sort of problem on a skydive, now you have to deal with a canopy that's a few steps ahead of you, and whatever the problem may be.

You got health insurance? Good health insurance?

[virgin-burner 1]

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I'd like some more opinions as I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit. Thanks for the time and advice. Blue Skies!

well, you came to the right place, postings with stuff like "wingloading"or "Downsize" do very well here.

NAH!?

ANOTHER OTHER downsizing-thread..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

Do you WANT to downsize?
I mean, if you feel comfortable under the 150 but are leery of the 135 why downsize?

Demoing is the answer. Ask your rigger whether he has both sizes of canopy available and demo the 150 first. If you like it, stick with it.
Also ask the rigger why he specifically reccommends the Nitron for you. What are his own experiences flying the canopy? How many jumps has he put on it?
Just my noob advice

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Hmmmm...

As you evaluate the various advice you get, be sure to assess if the person giving you the advice has a conflict of interest.

Does the rigger have money tied up in the Nitron that he or she is eager to get back out? Could that bias his/her advice?

I can't see how USPA or Brian Germain would have a conflict of interest in this matter... so why not check out what they have to say about wing loading:

USPA:
http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section5/tabid/168/Default.aspx#53b
AND
http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#610d

Brian Germain
http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf
(Note: All 22 pages of this publication are worth reading... not just the table on page 1.)

Regarding...."I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit"... Why do you think that is? Loading ambulances gets "weary" in a hurry.

Be sure to read up on how wingloading does NOT scale in a linear manner. Specificly, how canopies smaller than 150 sq ft are a different than those larger (regardless of wingloading).

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[prodiver913 0]

i went from a Triathlon 175 to a Pilot 150 (1.32) and I love it. It is a lot more comfortable that my tri and even though my W/L is higher, i feel more in control, better landings, and Iam way more comfortable flying it. To each his own man. I love the 150 and I dont plan on downsizing for at least 500 more jumps.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[NWFlyer 2]

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(I also have a Sabre 150 for more conservative flights)

How do you define this? How do you know which are going to be your "more conservative" flights when you decide which canopy to jump?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mjosparky 3]

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i went from a Triathlon 175 to a Pilot 150 (1.32) and I love it. It is a lot more comfortable that my tri and even though my W/L is higher, i feel more in control, better landings, and Iam way more comfortable flying it. To each his own man. I love the 150 and I dont plan on downsizing for at least 500 more jumps.

Where have I heard that before?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[michalm21 0]

wow, those downsizing threads just keep coming, huh?

My rule of thumb is: If you have to ask on the internet about it, the answer is NO - you're not ready.When you are ready, you will know it.

[TLob456 0]

If there is going to be a lot of air traffic, especially in the group I'm a part of such as a RW jump, I fly the 150 Sabre. Also, if there is any environmental factor which might affect the landing I've opted for the 150. I also jump the 150 first at any new DZ or different conditions.

[prodiver913 0]

which part? the dont plan on downsizing again for 500 more jumps? But, seriously. I feel more comfortable flying my Pilot 150 than any other canopy that I have ever demoed and used. I am very conservative under it and wont try anything more advance until I advance a little more. I have had nothing but great comments on how I fly my baby. Plus jumping in Hawaii you learn canopy skills a lot faster than freefall skills due to the psychotic winds and weather conditions. I am not and will never get complacent with a sport as attention to detail demanding as skydiving.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Have you completed Billvon's downsizing checklist on your 150 yet?

I really like it because it doesn't depend on jump #'s, wingloading or any of the "standard" measurements.
It gives you demonstrable skills to achieve. If you can do them, go for it.
If not, don't.

Checklist

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[AFFI 0]

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I am very conservative

105J'[email protected] = Not Conservative...

Kids these days, get thier lil ole 100 jumps and have it all figured out.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[TLob456 0]

Thanks WolfRiverJoe, that's about what I was looking for out of this post.

[ozzy13 0]

read this . Same as you with W/L at end is a video of what happened

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3119689;page=unread#unread

Just so you know USPA considers 150 and below a high performance canopy and recommends 500 jumps for it

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[davelepka 4]

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i went from a Triathlon 175 to a Pilot 150 (1.32) and I love it. It is a lot more comfortable that my tri

How many jumps on the Tri? On the Pilot? Aside from that, the Tri was not known for great landings, or handling in general. It was intended to be a sport canopy that you could also do CREW with. It never really caught on in that sense, but there are a ton of them still around, and generally for a low price.

It's no surprise that the Pilot flies better. It's not the WL, it's the canopy.

In terms of the OP, and the question you were responding to, as canopies get smaller, the lines get shorter and accordingly the roll rate increases. 1.3 on a 150 and 1.3 on a 135 are two different things, and require two different levels of skill and experience.

Anf really, you seem to know that you are out ahead of the norm, why the hell would you advise another person to do the same? Let's leave out the fact that you seem to know very little about what you a saying, just from the perspective of personal responsibility. Do you really think the 'right' thing to do is encourage others push the limits like you are?

You got health insurance?

Also, don't be surprised to see this post come back and bite you in the ass if you ass ever ends up in a hospital bed after trying to land a perfectly good canopy.

[AFFI 0]

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you seem to know (think) that you are out ahead of the norm...you seem to know very little about what you a saying... Do you really think the 'right' thing to do is encourage others push the limits like you are?

Sometimes newcomers to the sport have such a smug egotistical attitude it is difficult to penetrate their rough know-it-all exterior and reveal a little humble modesty.

They sometimes forget, or perhaps do not realize that there are multitudes of skydivers in the world that have forgotten more about skydiving then they have even learned yet.


Kids these days, get thier lil'ol 100 jumps and have it all figured out.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[prodiver913 0]

have fun taking life so seriously dude. You'll go far!! I really hope you're not one of those boring AFF-I's. I am guessing yes. You seem to have a negative outlook man. When you concentrate on things that can go wrong and think about them then metaphysics take over and usually they go wrong. Let go, relax and have fun and most of all stay positive and everything, every time will always work out for the best. Thinking about shit that can go wrong leads to fear, which leads to worrying which leads to possibly fatal mistakes.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[FrancoR 0]

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I have very good canopy control, have never botched a landing, and am not intending to get into swooping any time soon. I feel comfortable under the canopy and enjoy the ride.

When i bought my Spectre at about 150 jumps my rigger told me it would be too big for me and i would not have fun with it too long. I still bought the spectre at a WL of about 1.2 and guess what, i am still jumping it and don't intend to get anything else. I have been glad i had it several times.

One of those times was when power lines apeared in front of me even though the poles of the power line were all about 100m to my right. It turned out there were two powerlines and the two poles to my right were not from the same powerline. It was evening and the dark powerlines could not be seen over the plowed field. I saw them just in time to turn away because my canopy was not too fast and it did not plunge down during the turn even thoug i applied the brakes a little late.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[skybytch 259]

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have fun taking life so seriously dude. You'll go far!!

He's already gone farther in this sport than you're likely to.

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I really hope you're not one of those boring AFF-I's. I am guessing yes.

Yeah, those damn AFF-I's that insist on standing for safety. WTF are they thinking? And they're always so damn old. They really should hang up the gear and go sit on the rocking chair; the fact that they've survived years in the sport and seen countless hundred jump wonders find other things to do after fucking themselves up under canopies that are too fast for their experience level surely doesn't mean they actually know something about what they are talking about... unlike you. Your 100 jumps and way cool attitude totally trumps all that.

[prodiver913 0]

my positive attitude helps me stay safe. As well as a deep respect for the sport and fellow jumpers and an endless hunger for learning. And who is comparing who has gone farther. You are. He has definitely gone farther than me and is most likely an excellent skydiver.. Maybe I will and maybe I wont go farther than him. it's not a race. It's jump after jump, lesson after lesson. If it wasn't for two deployments I would have over 500 jumps and this cold weather doesnt help. It's not a race. This sport needs a change for the better and take it away from people who concentrate on the things that can go wrong and focus positively on the things that WILL go right. And you guys do know a lot. Hell, you're instructors. But you guys seem to always shit out the little guys when they have every right a voice as you. Your way is not the only right way. You're way may work for you but not for everybody. And BTW my canopy IS NOT fast. It is perfect for where I want to be. Like I said concentrate on a negative and it will be. Free your mind.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[pilotdave 0]

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If there is going to be a lot of air traffic, especially in the group I'm a part of such as a RW jump, I fly the 150 Sabre. Also, if there is any environmental factor which might affect the landing I've opted for the 150. I also jump the 150 first at any new DZ or different conditions.

This answers the question for me. If you don't feel comfortable jumping the canopy when there's going to be traffic or when you're jumping somewhere unfamiliar, you shouldn't be jumping it at all. You can end up in traffic on a cessna load or at an unfamiliar dropzone because of a bad spot. You can't upsize your canopy in flight...

Dave

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah, positive attitude and focusing on what will go right will keep ya safe. Don't read those negative incident reports. They're real downers. And besides, they only teach ya what can go wrong, not right! Knowing that stuff is a surefire way to get hurt!

Dave

[prodiver913 0]

i love reading incident reports. It teaches you. They're not negative. Now maybe the person handled the emergency negatively and impacted his ability to act in the right manner. Who knows. But, though sad in many cases, it teaches us. The key is to not dwell on it. Now I have not had any major emergencies in skydiving yet. But I am a Padi Rescue Scuba Diver with many specialties including cavern diving. I have had a few emergencies while doing "shallow" 150' caverns in Florida that if I did not act quickly, but most importantly with a clear minded, positive attitude I would be dead right now.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.