How many riggers still pack round reserves

[riggerrob 558]

How many riggers still pack round reserves?

This is in response to a question - on another thread - about a Pioneer K20 reserve that tested acidic.

Option 5 also implies that the rigger never learned how to pack round reserves.
For example, learning to pack rounds is optional for Canadian Rigger As.

[councilman24 36]

OOO, OOO!

I got to vote first! In my season I do rounds all the time. Pack for a bunch of war bird pilots. Even have one guy that flies me to a warbird museum a couple hours by car to pack all of their rigs. (Once in his T-6 and once in his King Air) Also packed a pop top chest mount with a 24' flat last year. As well as my Crossbow piggy back rig.

And I'm looking for a new house and one of the requirements is a 40' long basement.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[tdog 0]

I know a guy locally (the DPRE) who has a viable, full on, professional rigging loft, that survives on multiple pilot rigs (round) a week.

I learned to pack rounds there. I am far from an expert, but I have used those skills to pack a rounds that I jumped off a certain bridge, for intentional water landings. I have proof to show that - A GQ Security round will open very quickly 100 feet above the ground if packed correctly. I also have the splash to prove the landing on ground would hurt.

That being said. Even though I had to prove the DPRE in my mentoring I had a familiarity with rounds, I would - if asked to pack a round - take it to him and co-pack it in the same way doctors sometimes ask other doctors to help... I just don't consider myself current, nor ever will be. I am one of those skydiver riggers.

[stratostar 5]

I have a large collection and pack them once a year, sometimes twice a season.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

I do! I do! Oh, wait.....still missing that "ticket".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rushmc 18]

I plan on doing about 100 of them this year. Not so much for the rounds as for the seat rating

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jumper03 0]

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How many riggers still pack round reserves?

This is in response to a question - on another thread - about a Pioneer K20 reserve that tested acidic.

Option 5 also implies that the rigger never learned how to pack round reserves.
For example, learning to pack rounds is optional for Canadian Rigger As.

you need another poll option. Definitely not once a week, but more than rarely.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[likestojump 3]

pack the Pilot rigs. Packed 2 in a modern sport rig.

[Deyan 31]

I have about 60-70 rounds per year.Including pilots seat and chest reserves,military chest and back reserves.So I'm really confident about rounds.But I hate them.

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[fcajump 153]

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I have about 60-70 rounds per year.Including pilots seat and chest reserves,military chest and back reserves.So I'm really confident about rounds.But I hate them.

Blue skies

About 100 more or less each year, almost all rounds... except for the need for a table (solved, but not conveniently) I prefer rounds as the rigger... In my sport rig however... Ram-Airx2... Never have landed a round.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[hajnalka 0]

We do a bunch, mostly for glider and aerobatic pilots. While we don't pack rounds every week, it averages out to much more than one/wk over a year.

i.e. we might have one guy bring in 10 rigs at once, right before an event or competition. (Is there some secret FAA cabal? I don't know, neither am I involved!)

We also have more than a few paraglider and hang-glider customers. Many different deployment systems, but the reserve canopies are similar smaller rounds, usually with pulled down apex. (Huge shout out to Betty at High Energy Sports for her help and knowledge over the years.)

Some of them have told us that they'd tried riggers closer to their area who wouldn't touch their stuff because it isn't TSO'd, much like BASE gear.

I always tell the aerobatic and glider guys that I KNOW they would sooner use their rig to beat out flames in the cockpit, rather than abandon their aircraft. Not kidding. Then I try to educate them on getting out, deploying and landing their parachute if they need to.

Thankfully, the last time I packed a round reserve into a sport container was 4 years ago. I might get flamed for this, but I don't plan on doing that again
Trying my best to keep people safe.

Best,
D

[tdog 0]

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Some of them have told us that they'd tried riggers closer to their area who wouldn't touch their stuff because it isn't TSO'd, much like BASE gear.

Funny - I have had three skydivers tell me they trust me because I BASE jump and have tested my packjobs in the field.

After seeing some, if not most, of the pilot bailout rigs... If I was a pilot thinking I needed such a rig (and I did not need a TSOed rig) - I would take my base rig packed slider up.

End of story. It opens quick and reliably. Canopy can land anywhere. May not have the cashmere back-pad and fancy silver handle - but none of the over complicated systems either. Granted, it is not a friendly rig for non-jumpers, you need to know how to use it... But...

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that I KNOW they would sooner use their rig to beat out flames in the cockpit, rather than abandon their aircraft.

Or trust those pilot bailout rigs. Can you imagine - some of the rigs - where the lines are stowed to the packtray... Who thought of that brilliant idea?

Scenario: The pilot bails out. He tumbles as he pulls his handle as he is not a skydiver. If he is lucky enough not to have wrapped the bridle around himself in the flat spin, he still will be barrel rolling thru the lines before they get away from his body. I don't see a round working too good with only a few feet of line out and the rest still in the rubber bands on his ass. What makes skydiving reserves so friendly is that the canopy and the lines get away from the body as soon as possible in the opening sequence.

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Then I try to educate them on getting out, deploying and landing their parachute if they need to.

I can't tell you how many (ok, maybe only 5) pilots I have taken thru a FJC and AFF level 1 for the simple purpose - that they wanted to have that skillset. When they man-up and tell me why they are in the class - I make sure to adapt the teaching to their goals, knowing sitfly is not their long term destination. I think these pilots are awesome.

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Thankfully, the last time I packed a round reserve into a sport container was 4 years ago. I might get flamed for this, but I don't plan on doing that again

I agree. I would turn down the work. I know as a rigger I can't pack a bad landing, but I would still feel bad when they had one.

[diablopilot 2]

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Can you imagine - some of the rigs - where the lines are stowed to the packtray... Who thought of that brilliant idea?

And how are the lines stowed on the round you based?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tdog 0]

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And how are the lines stowed on the round you based?

Option A) You are trying to prove I am a two-faced bastard... Well, everyone knows I am, so.

Option B) You know that most BASE round canopy water rigs address line stows in the same way as the pilot rigs. I thought long and hard about the ramifications of jumping it and determined that since the bridge was not spinning out of control missing a wing, with the wheels on fire, I could accomplish a stable exit and not risk tumbling thru the lines. I would not want to jump the same rig out of an aircraft, even with skydiving experience where I could get stable.... Too much risk (in my opinion).

[diablopilot 2]

Option B.

Now think about how the military static line rigs have their lines stowed.

As for the pilot rig, I'm thinking that the higher risk of entanglement comes from the spring loaded P/C and bridle than the way the lines are stowed. And the I believe (without much actual evidence) that the malfunction rate for lines on the back pad is lower for that of a full stow diaper or a sleeve (which I haven't seen on a pilot rig).

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tdog 0]

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(without much actual evidence)

That is the key. I asked (to bring this thread back on topic) a rigger who packs hundreds of rounds a year into pilot rigs... "How many saves?" "Never, and I don't expect I will ever see one."

He also could quote, by names, the pilots who died in their aircraft while wearing the rig he packed.

Pilot rigs have very little actual real world deployment. Hence, the system is not very well tested. Compare that to the skydiving world where reserves are fired every weekend at a large DZ, or a BASE rig, that gets jumped tens of thousands of times.

[diablopilot 2]

The evidence is there, I just haven't studied it. There have been quite a lot of saves on pilot rig technology. Most of them were prior to the invention of the ejection seat.

Anyone know if Alan Silver posts here?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wmw999 2,116]

Back when the earth was cold and surplus rounds were packed into sport reserves, the lines were commonly stowed in the container, whether it be on the front, or the top of a piggyback. I don't recall its being a horror-show.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AMT 0]

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Option B.

Now think about how the military static line rigs have their lines stowed.

As for the pilot rig, I'm thinking that the higher risk of entanglement comes from the spring loaded P/C and bridle than the way the lines are stowed. And the I believe (without much actual evidence) that the malfunction rate for lines on the back pad is lower for that of a full stow diaper or a sleeve (which I haven't seen on a pilot rig).

Do you mean the diaper has more malfunctions than canopy first deployment?

[diablopilot 2]

Yes. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 558]

I disagree.
Type 1 deployment - with all the lines stowed in the pack tray - is the least reliable method of deployment. Cnopy-first deployment only works gracefully at the low-speed edge of the envelope.
Back during World War 2, the Brits introduced (Type 5) direct-bag deployment (with all the lines stowed on the deployment bag) for paratroopers. DB so vastly reduced malfunctions that British paratroopers did not need reserves.
Fast forward twenty years and most Armies adopted direct bag for paratroopers.
Even the Soviets adopted sleeves (think really long deployment bag) for their paratroopers.
Meanwhile, during the 1950s, the United States Air Force introduced the BA-22 bail out rig with all the lines stowed on a quarter bag.
During the 1960s, Hank Ascuito (sp?) vastly simplified the quarter bag when he invented the diaper (Type 2, Type 3 and Type 4 deployment).

A diaper is a small sheet of fabric (about the same size as a sheet of typewriter paper) that wraps around the skirt/bottom of a round canopy. Suspension lines are stowed in (2 to 12) rubber bands on the diaper.
Diapers serve three functions.
First, diapers lift lines out of the container early in the deployment process, reducing the risk of the jumper entangling with his lines.
Secondly - and by far the most important - diapers hold the skirt closed until you reach line stretch. The faster you are going, the more important lines-first deployment is to reducing opening shock.
Thirdly, diapers help hold the skirt (bottom edge) even. Keeping the skirt/lower lateral band even vastly reduces the incidence of inversion (old term "line over") type malfunctions.

All round sport reserves - made since the 1960s - have diapers sewn on. Ergo most pilot emergency parachutes incorporate diapers. I know several riggers who refuse to repack non-diapered rounds. Maybe that is just them saying they don't want to pack anything made before the 1960s.
Strong Enterprises published statistics saying that diapers vastly improve reliability of round canopies, by vastly reducing the incidence of inversion type malfunctions.

Sleeves used to fashionable on round mains, but now are rarely seen except on high-speed PEPs built by Free Flight (Preserve 4) and Butler (HX Sombrero Slider series).

[Unstable 8]

I pack several a Week - as a matter of fact, I probably pack MORE round reserves than I do squares!!! I do the rigging at our Dropzone, but I also do rigging for a aerobatic flight club, as well as about 5 or 6 private aircraft owners that use Emergency systems in their aircraft.

In my "in" shelf,I have 2 or 3 Strong Seat-type systems I need to have out by Feb. 8th, I'll set up my tables and do them in a long afternoon.

Mind, I do not pack rounds for sport skydivers..... I pack a lot of new rounds for pilots, and the oldest one I've packed in the last month or so was a 1998.

I thnk pursuing my seat ratting was one of the best decision's I've made as a rigger.


Edited because I forgot to close by bold bracket - I wasn't yelling.

=========Shaun ==========

[diablopilot 2]

I appreciate the lesson!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hajnalka 0]

Rob -

Thank you for posting that, about diaper vs. container stows.

When I was a new rigger I was advised not to pack a sport rig w/round reserve with container stows. I didn't have any hard data on hand to compare container, partial or full diaper, but getting the canopy away from container and jumper before the lines start to unstow seemed intuitively a good thing! I deferred to the judgement of people who know much, much more than me - esp. Manly Butler, who does a lot of drop-testing at our DZ. (I figured the man knew his rounds
Obviously rounds with container-stowed lines have worked and saved people many, many times. I understand Capewells worked fine too ... still, I'd rather have a 3-ring release. Progress is good.

[pchapman 261]

Packing round reserves is still "normal" to me, although an occasional practice. I learned to pack both rounds and squares at a time when rounds were still common in used rigs.

In sport parachuting, I've usually come across round reserves in big old rigs being used as spare rigs for accuracy, as I'm at a DZ that has encouraged accuracy. Same applies for my own old accuracy rig.

Another category was of people who have been around a long time, but rarely ever jump, and bring out their one and only ancient rig. But that's getting pretty rare.

I'm not in the "ground everything at 20 years" camp, but that just delays the decision, as eventually one starts having to ask questions about 25 or 30 years for those mid '80s Phantom 24's and the like.

(By the way, regarding pilot emergency rigs with lines in the pack tray: I don't know all the rigs well, but I think modern emergency rigs usually have full stow diapers. National, Butler, GQ, and Paraphernalia/FFE do it that way. Strong is a holdout with lines in the pack tray and a Type II line equalization diaper.)