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chutingstar

Cypres Service Bulletin Released

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So how do you tell the difference between a 'good' CYPRES that is turned off and has a blank display from a 'bad' CYPRES that screws up in some unknown way and has a blank display?

.



From this bulletin and the manual, a 'bad' CYPRES would be one you couldn't get to turn on (and then off, if you wanted it off). A 'good' CYPRES with a blank screen would be one that you could turn on and then off.

And this is if you're trying to determine if a CYPRES is 'good' with a blank screen.

Mike
ChutingStar.com

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in other words, you can't.

(you can test it, although the bulletin states the unit could be wrong after a single error at startup, but you can never see it...)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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in other words, you can't.

(you can test it, although the bulletin states the unit could be wrong after a single error at startup, but you can never see it...)




Yeah, but the bad news is: this is a problem all AADs have.
its very naive to think only the electronic of a single manufacturer could produce such an error.

So this discussion is very theoretically, in my opinion.

Its the same question if you wonder IF your chute will open. There's no guarantee and now way to prove it until you try it.
Same here.

Don't be a Lutz!

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Yeah, but the bad news is: this is a problem all AADs have.



This is quite a statement you put out here.

You state that:

1) All AAD manufactorers have a problem, which enables their AAD's to be on, but with a blank display.

2) In that condition, the unit van misfire at will (after a certain unspecified flight condition occurs).

I have seen no report from AAD (Vigil) or Argus, stating such a thing.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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This is quite a statement you put out here.



Yes

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1) All AAD manufactorers have a problem, which enables their AAD's to be on, but with a blank display.



That implies that Cypres has one. But theres only a minor chance to produce such an error. And this minor chance is a thing all manufacturers have.
If you don't believe me - wait a couple of years and you will see that I was right.


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2) In that condition, the unit van misfire at will (after a certain unspecified flight condition occurs).



Will or CAN? Dude, the point is that you don't know more than I do about this "problem". You do nothing other than interpret written words. The difference between your statements and mine is that you interpret a lot more than I do and that I know that anything that can happen with electronic devices can happen on all similar products.
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I have seen no report from AAD (Vigil) or Argus, stating such a thing.



Very funy. How long is Cypres out there and how long are the others?
How much Cypres units are out there and how many Vigil/Argus?
Probability calculation is the keyword here....

Don't be a Lutz!

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Will or CAN?



Like I said can... (ok I made a typo "van")

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But theres only a minor chance to produce such an error. And this minor chance is a thing all manufacturers have.



Yet serveral users here on dz.com has reported such an error, but because they didn't want to jump without a cypres, we don't know what happend. What we do know now, is the unit cannot be trusted when this happens AND you can't see it (you have to know it).

Further more, again you state this will happen to all AAD's, which is only speculation on your side.


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How long is Cypres out there and how long are the others?



Well, the VIGIL has been around longer then Cypres 2. (although VIGIL isn't my choice of AAD, but that is because of other reasons)

BTW this is the second time cypres 2 has problems with it's display and the second time AirTec doesn't find a recall nescessary. At least the first time they could fix it in the new units...
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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So how do you tell the difference between a 'good' CYPRES that is turned off and has a blank display from a 'bad' CYPRES that screws up in some unknown way and has a blank display?

.



From this bulletin and the manual, a 'bad' CYPRES would be one you couldn't get to turn on (and then off, if you wanted it off). A 'good' CYPRES with a blank screen would be one that you could turn on and then off.

And this is if you're trying to determine if a CYPRES is 'good' with a blank screen.

Mike



So in the real world, people will start the start process- won't look at the display (most jumpers don't) during countdown.
Then at altitude someone says - "hey your CYPRES is not on."
And the guy with the rig says "I can't remember if I turned it on or not."
So is it bad or good? no one knows

---whatever you do, do not try to turn it on at altitude

This failure mode is very serious.
Esp if you do video for HD.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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So in the real world, people will start the start process- won't look at the display (most jumpers don't) during countdown.



Hopefully the recent incident and this bulletin will kickstart a change where more skydivers pay attention closely during the Cypres countdown process.

Mike
ChutingStar.com

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So in the real world, people will start the start process- won't look at the display (most jumpers don't) during countdown.



Hopefully the recent incident and this bulletin will kickstart a change where more skydivers pay attention closely during the Cypres countdown process.

Mike



I've always watched the countdown closely on mine. Now I have good reason to bring this to everyone's attention at my home DZ.

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I've said in different topics already, but this is NOT a case of RTFM, the problem stated: "If cypres does not say "0" you can't say if the unit is off, or maybe someone turned it on with an error in which case in can misfire at will"



Well if this isn't a case of RTFM, then what is it, a case of WTFF ?? Consider the facts.

First of all, this incident occurred with a single unit and is not a widespread problem, or at least has not been reported as one. The part I find truly APPALLING is that this unit was said to have had SEVERAL startup problems the day before, before appearing to give it up altogether before the jump where the misfire occurred. Continuing to use any unit that's exhibiting an inexplicable startup problem is morally indefensible. It puts the life of the user, as well as anyone who might be over the user's back, in mortal danger. The Manual sez that if there's a reading that can't be explained, don't use the thing until it's been examined by Airtech or SSK. I know that's a pain in the ass, but the Manual warns us that something like this could happen. And now they've had to give common sense the weight of a mandatory service bulletin. Sorry, but 3 years ago we had a RTFM fatality at Perris involving a woman who had apparently been turning on her Cypres at her sea level home before driving to the 1400 ft dropzone. The unit never fired, as it never read a 750 ft altitude before impact. RTFM. Of course the fact that she never pulled until about 100 ft didn't help things any either.

Jumping an AAD - any brand of AAD - that acts up on being turned on is like jumping a rig with frayed risers. It's inexcusable. It's a matter of people taking responsibility for their own lives, as well as the lives of everyone else who boards the plane with them. And that includes RTFM. Read it, learn it, believe it, love it.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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Dude, the person never even turned it on that morning. They pushed the button and nothing happened (no LED/no nothing). To this person it felt like they did not have a cypres. They where apprehensive but only from not having a cypres in their backup rig. BTW, I was holding this persons hand in a three way flower when this occured, I'm kinda close to the incident...

This is just a reaction to your "morally indefensible" comment. So easy to throw that out when you where not even there.

-Trunk
HYPOXIC

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First of all, this incident occurred with a single unit and is not a widespread problem, or at least has not been reported as one.



It also happened to me, same day. Difference is, Margaret (Eloy riggers shack) recommended I not jump it for 14 hours so I knew the unit was off. Unit had been working fine each of the previous days.
I don't know if it happened to more than just two units, or if it was more widespread and others aren't members here.
I'm a little surprised that the manufacturer hasn't contacted me after I sent them (and SSK) a letter outlining the experience.

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First off, I am a HUGE fan of RTFM. My experience is most skydivers don't read manuals for most of their gear/electronics that they rely on nor understand the parameters in which their AAD functions. I am also in agreement with Slotperfect as to watching the count down. As he stated, it's what we do in the Military and it works, period.

Second:


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First of all, this incident occurred with a single unit and is not a widespread problem, or at least has not been reported as one. The part I find truly APPALLING is that this unit was said to have had SEVERAL startup problems the day before, before appearing to give it up altogether before the jump where the misfire occurred.Continuing to use any unit that's exhibiting an inexplicable startup problem is morally indefensible.



This problem exhibited itself in 2 instances with different people at the same boogie and has been sporadically reported here by others online. It is my understanding that the person who had the Cypres fire experienced the start up problems the day before the incident. The next day she did not turn the unit on and thought she was jumping with her Cypres turned off, as there was no read out in the display, this is when the Cypres malfunctioned and fired shortly after clearing the hill while she was in a 3 way head down circle. I've seen the video of it and I can tell you that it was definitely violent and I am glad she wasn't hurt, I don't think a bigger person would have fared as well. I am also glad that the second person who had this problem did not jump his rig that day or the following day.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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They pushed the button and nothing happened (no LED/no nothing). To this person it felt like they did not have a cypres.



AT that point the unit CLEARLY has a defect.

Not only does common sense say don't jump it, but the law (FAR's) say so as well.

Glad your friend is ok. She made a mistake, possibly through ignorance. No blame is needed, simply a lesson learned by the ENTIRE community.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Yet serveral users here on dz.com has reported such an error, but because they didn't want to jump without a cypres, we don't know what happend. What we do know now, is the unit cannot be trusted when this happens AND you can't see it (you have to know it).



If I remember right, there's a big difference:
The units you speak about had the problem that the display turned off but the units still were useable (they could turned on and off). But in this case the unit gave any vital signs (no LED activity).


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Further more, again you state this will happen to all AAD's, which is only speculation on your side.



I didn't say it will happen to all AAD's. I said, it CAN happen. I spoke about a chance. A windows PC can crash and a Mac can do it the same way. The point is that you can't produce something and believe that it is absolutely impossible that it will produce malfunctions.
The chain can break on every link. If comparable products have comparable components (links) than there's a realistic chance that some units of every product will break down on similiar ways.

***
BTW this is the second time cypres 2 has problems with it's display and the second time AirTec doesn't find a recall nescessary. At least the first time they could fix it in the new units...

I would need more technical details to get a opinion if Airtecs behaviour was right. .
Maybe you're right in this point. But the problem that is discussed here is another.
And as some others here explained: The big problem was that it was known that the rig wasn't grounded even it was known that

- it produced strange errors
- it didn't turned on / gave any feedback when the button was pushed.

So the major difference between the example you brought into the discussion and this example here is that there was clear that - as someone told before - the unit wasn't ready to fly.
There was a noticeable difference between these two scenarios. Noticable for everyone with an IQ above room temperature. :P

In my opinion its a no-brainer that you shouldn't jump a gear that isn't 100% perfect fine.
Thats a safety principle.
A principle that held the Space Shuttle down (for example).

Don't be a Lutz!

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it didn't turned on / gave any feedback when the button was pushed.



This happens quite often frankly, although untill now, it was either a "wrong push" or a stiff "window". Sometime people who are on a boarding call just think, whatever, just a hop and pop, I'll do it after this jump. This is not a rare occurance and is not in disagreement with the manual.

Furthermore, it isn't "household" behavior for most people to watch the countdown, you turn it on, do the rest of the check, or do something else and when it's time to jump, to check if it reads "0".
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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Furthermore, it isn't "household" behavior for most people to watch the countdown, you turn it on, do the rest of the check, or do something else and when it's time to jump, to check if it reads "0".



again: RTFM. if you (the general you, not to be taken on a personal level, you know) don't want to play by the (really simple) rules, STFU if you wake up in a place where you didn't want to be :|

sometimes ignorance is bliss, most of the times it's just a royal pain in the you know what
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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I thought I pretty much new the manual by heart, but to check it again, i just read it again (dutch version).

1) Manual states nowhere you have to watch the countdown.

2) Manual states numbers appearing, unless they are error numbers, have no meaning to the users.

3) Manual states, that after an error, the unit will shutdown.

4) Manual explicitly states, if the start-up failes, simply try again.

5) Manual implies the unit will only be "on" if the display displays "0"

6) Manual implies unit will not fire, when unit isn't on.

Like I said before, alot of trouble is caused by people not RTFM, but this is not it. (check statement 4 (page 18 of manual))
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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it didn't turned on / gave any feedback when the button was pushed.



This happens quite often frankly, although untill now, it was either a "wrong push" or a stiff "window". Sometime people who are on a boarding call just think, whatever, just a hop and pop, I'll do it after this jump. This is not a rare occurance and is not in disagreement with the manual.

Furthermore, it isn't "household" behavior for most people to watch the countdown, you turn it on, do the rest of the check, or do something else and when it's time to jump, to check if it reads "0".



...and hopefully this SB and Mike's posting will help change that attitude and "household" behavior.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Sounds like they forgot to mention - in the manual - to watch the entire start-up routine, because it is "second nature' to the engineers who designed it.

By mentioning error codes, the engineers "implied" that you should watch the entire start-up routine.

I never followed the "household" ... always watched the entire start-up routine ... and now it seems that my silly habits were better than "household."

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1) Manual states nowhere you have to watch the countdown.

2) Manual states numbers appearing, unless they are error numbers, have no meaning to the users.



C'mon, that's hairsplitting. Even im combination with the second point.

My opinion: There can everytime occur an error that isn't described in ANY manual.
So, the use of the brain is necessary to make the whole thing faile-safe.
If I see something that I can't explain by knowledge or the manual, I ask someone who should know it (Rigger, manufacturer...).
It's simply not woth the jump.
If I'm not 100% convinced that my gear is OK I don't jump out of airplanes.

Don't be a Lutz!

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