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johnbamburg

Hop and Pop issues

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I'm sure this has been covered before. I can't find where exactly so I thought I'd ask for what at least has to be...again.
I'm coming to the end of AFP. I've had pretty decent exits and very little stability problems through out. Yet it got really strange when it came time to do the hop and pops.
On 2 attempts. I seemed to get "brain lock" or something. My exits were very bad and I ended up pulling, once in a spin and another almost in a sitting position. Just totally wrong and as if I'd never had any real training at all.
Let me say that my instructors are the best and my training has been great. Even the training for these hop and pop attempts.
I'm having a "Do Over" this weekend. I can't figure out why this suddenly got so difficult when nothing else really has been. I know there is plenty of time for these. Why am I acting like there's no time to get stable and pull? It's like I've got a brain lock.
Am I the only one whose had problems like this. Allot of the folks at the DZ just laugh. And I really can't blame them.
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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Sounds like you get a bit too anxious becouse of the lack of height and then miss the exit, nothing new there. Relax, visualise and jump.

Obviously there is also the chance that since your coming from AFP your exits might not be as good as you think...

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Blis

Sounds like you get a bit too anxious becouse of the lack of height and then miss the exit, nothing new there. Relax, visualise and jump.

Obviously there is also the chance that since your coming from AFP your exits might not be as good as you think...



This is true
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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There have indeed been other threads as it is a common issue for newbies with only higher altitude experience to get nervous with their first low jumps.

One tip is to think about the time available: 5 seconds out the door is only 366 ft. (Admittedly, after that you're burning altitude faster.) I don't know if you're exiting at 5000' or what, but it means that you have plenty of time, tons of time to legal pull altitudes whether for an experienced jumper or a student.

Try calculating it!

And carry out the jump one step at a time. It is indeed a mental thing to avoid the thought of "ohmygod imlow ihavetopullrightaway". The thought of pulling doesn't have to interfere with basics like a good chest to wind exit etc, because there's plenty of time for everything.

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What he said: relax, take your time. The first seconds you'll lose very little altitute, you just go with the speed of the plane until you slow down horizontally and start accelerating vertically (at the same time). We do even 2 way headdown exits on hopnpops and one or two quick docks before seperation and pull, so really, you don't have to pull right out the door, take a few seconds.

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As has been stated, you have plenty of time but you must believe that down deep where your mind control functions live.

Do the dive flow 20 times making yourself wait 3 seconds or more. That might help you sort of be on autopilot when you do that exit.

Watch the plane! If you really watch the plane, you will most likely be in a good position to pull.

At least for me there came a time when I would embrace the air. Before that time, I guess I was more reactive, once "out". But then something happened and I learned to grab the air and use it, not just react to it. That is when I went from someone jumping out of a plane to someone that was skydiving. I still had a lot to learn but that was a pivotal point in my progression. If you have not hit that point yet, I can see where these jumps can be a challenge.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I like that phrase. "Embracing the air". That's the feeling I'm searching for in this crazy sport.
I know I can't expect to have that feeling with just 15-16 free falls under my belt. But I didn't expect to seize up on those first hop and pops either.
I do need to convince myself that a hop and pop from 3500 is a full 5 to 8 second count. I see the dive flow in my mind. I just need to convince myself that the 6 count dive flow is the actual dive flow.
Still it does concern me that not that many people have had this problem. I'm not sure why it should concern me.
Actually it absolutely should not concern me.
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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johnbamburg

I like that phrase. "Embracing the air". That's the feeling I'm searching for in this crazy sport.
I know I can't expect to have that feeling with just 15-16 free falls under my belt. But I didn't expect to seize up on those first hop and pops either.
I do need to convince myself that a hop and pop from 3500 is a full 5 to 8 second count. I see the dive flow in my mind. I just need to convince myself that the 6 count dive flow is the actual dive flow.
Still it does concern me that not that many people have had this problem. I'm not sure why it should concern me.
Actually it absolutely should not concern me.



I felt that "embracing the air" moment on my 3rd solo jump off of AFF status. I stopped fighting and reacting against the wind and just let it do its thing, and man what a difference does it make!

I wouldnt concentrate so much on waiting those 5-8 seconds, because once you are out of the plane, you wont think about counting. What helped me when I did mine was stick my dick in the wind and arch towards the prop at the door, and just let go. Once you see the tail of the plane....pull. Its really that simple.

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Are you setting up by climbing outside first into a prone position, or just stepping out into the relative wind ? I prefer just stepping out into the wind ( King Air / Otter ) ..... never jumping up of course. What type of plane do you jump from by the way ?
Life is short ... jump often.

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Like the others said, you have enough time to make a nice, unhurried exit. :)

But if you're exiting from 3500 ft and having (subconscious) worries or stress about 'the ground being really close' you might like to try a hop and pop from the usual AFF-depoyment altitude (5000 ft).

It won't count for your training card, obviously, but it's good practice. Get comfortable, and then do the 'real' H&P from 3500 ft.

ETA: of course this depends on whether your DZ allows H&P from 5000 ft and you should discuss this with your instructors beforehand.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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We have both a King Air and a Caravan at the DZ. Both of these ridiculously poor Hop and Pops were out of the Van. And yes it was from a "floater" position outside.

jumpsalot-2

Are you setting up by climbing outside first into a prone position, or just stepping out into the relative wind ? I prefer just stepping out into the wind ( King Air / Otter ) ..... never jumping up of course. What type of plane do you jump from by the way ?


What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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johnbamburg

We have both a King Air and a Caravan at the DZ. Both of these ridiculously poor Hop and Pops were out of the Van. And yes it was from a "floater" position outside.



Not to contradict your instructors, but the general point of (a) low hop & pop(s) as part of training for AFF students is for at least one such exit to be un-poised, to simulate the conditions of an emergency exit.

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Baksteen

Like the others said, you have enough time to make a nice, unhurried exit. :)

But if you're exiting from 3500 ft and having (subconscious) worries or stress about 'the ground being really close' you might like to try a hop and pop from the usual AFF-depoyment altitude (5000 ft).

It won't count for your training card, obviously, but it's good practice. Get comfortable, and then do the 'real' H&P from 3500 ft.

ETA: of course this depends on whether your DZ allows H&P from 5000 ft and you should discuss this with your instructors beforehand.



See, That's the screwy part of the whole thing. In our AFP we do 2, Hop and pops. One from 5500 and the one that counts from 3500.I screwed'm both up. That's OK though I'm just adding them to the 25 I need and I'm going to do a Re-Do on Friday. I think I was just overthinking and letting my mind get ahead of what the present moment was. I also never really put the dive flow through my mind correctly.
As I've thought about it since....There really is allot of time. At least 8 seconds before anything critical, (altitude wise) can happen. Breathing and smiling. even with these hop and pops, is going to be my savior I think.
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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Andy9o8

***We have both a King Air and a Caravan at the DZ. Both of these ridiculously poor Hop and Pops were out of the Van. And yes it was from a "floater" position outside.



Not to contradict your instructors, but the general point of (a) low hop & pop(s) as part of training for AFF students is for at least one such exit to be un-poised, to simulate the conditions of an emergency exit.

I understand and If I were given a preference for exit. It would be a dive, chest and pelvis to prop. But I don't think it would have made a difference on the first 2 screw ups. I simply went completely wacky.
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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When doing HnP's you should go for straight exit instead of diving exit becouse the latter is much more unstable and you loose more altitude (For fun jumps diving exit is totally cool and extremely fun at times)

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Don't ask me how but I managed to graduate off AFF w/o being to dive out truly stable.

My first truly stable dive out exit was... from 1,800 feet during an "emergency" exit (air quotes cuz it was just a blown piston on a DC3, not much of an emergency).

Either got lucky or I somehow mentally pulled it together when it seemed to count. Regardless after that I could dive out like a champ consistently.

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What would Vic Mackey do?

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It might (or it might not) be too late for this advice, but a good way to ensure you nail your hop-n-pops is to practice the exit a few times from altitude (doing a practice touch rather than a real pull).

And I'll second (third? fourth?) the advice to keep your eyes on the plane as you go off.

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Quote

In our AFP we do 2, Hop and pops. One from 5500 and the one that counts from 3500.I screwed'm both up.



So, after pooching the first one, someone thought that doing one from a lower altitude with less time and more stress would help you nail it?
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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johnbamburg

******We have both a King Air and a Caravan at the DZ. Both of these ridiculously poor Hop and Pops were out of the Van. And yes it was from a "floater" position outside.



Not to contradict your instructors, but the general point of (a) low hop & pop(s) as part of training for AFF students is for at least one such exit to be un-poised, to simulate the conditions of an emergency exit.

I understand and If I were given a preference for exit. It would be a dive, chest and pelvis to prop. But I don't think it would have made a difference on the first 2 screw ups. I simply went completely wacky.

Don't take this personal, as it is the overall trend.

Those doing SL or IAD normally never see this problem because every jump starts below 5,000 for a while.

Last Saturday I was on the plane with a just turned 18 year old, doing his first Clear and Pull. He exited, hanging from a C182. I leaned over to watch him, remembering my first solo freefall at this same DZ. He got his money's worth, falling stable for 5+ seconds before deploying. I think this was jump 6 for him in the IAD program. Very nicely done.

IAD/SL student
What is scary is when the plane goes over 5,000 feet!

AFF/AFP student
What is scary is when the plane is lower than 10,000 feet!
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Too right! I remember that first scary, long, slowly flat-sprinning freefall from 12k all too well :D


To the OP, personally i have never managed to nail a solo floater exit from side door aircraft (Caravan, C206, Otter).
I prefer to jump sideways from within the plane.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Blis

When doing HnP's you should go for straight exit instead of diving exit becouse the latter is much more unstable and you loose more altitude (For fun jumps diving exit is totally cool and extremely fun at times)



I think I mean what you are describing. I said dive but I mean presented to the prop and straight toward the end of the wing of the aircraft. I apologize. I don't have my nomenclature down yet.
But....what you said
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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flyhi

Quote

In our AFP we do 2, Hop and pops. One from 5500 and the one that counts from 3500.I screwed'm both up.



So, after pooching the first one, someone thought that doing one from a lower altitude with less time and more stress would help you nail it?


I kinda push for it. Thinking well the first one didn't really count. Let's do the one that counts.
The truth is that the first one was allot better than the second. I wasn't exactly stable but I was flopping and spinning like a fish on a boat deck. It just got worse and to the coach's defense. I pushed it ahead.
What you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say.

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