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hackish

Holes in a reserve - to patch or not to patch?

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I would think you are about 60 years old, grey hair, grey bush moustach and smokes roll your own ciggarettes.




OK, So if that is true, he's already out lived you (twice) what's your point?

If you don't fully understand what you are using/selling, I suggest you take a crash course on exactly what it takes to develop , manufacture, and consistantly build a canopy that will operate in almost every aspect of it's use. even the unforeseen scenarios that seem to occur in every day use. I can assure you from personal experience, it's waaaaay more than you can imagine. It might even enlighten you somewhat as to how much punisment a canopy can take and still do the job it was originally designed for.

Look into it, you may learn somthing new. It will make you smarter (and more credible). You and those like you are the future of the sport, learn from past mistakes and run with them, forget your EGO, we're all fragile we all make mistakes. A quote here: ( I forget who made it) "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" (I think it was Winston Churchill).

Bottom line:

KNOW YOUR SUBJECT!! inside and out!!!!!!

What you THINK you know will get you into trouble unless you FULLY understand it! What say you?

Mick. (ask anyone who knows me about my street cred).

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:)
Your PR must be repaired & this is according the PR manual - 2 holes in a close area.

You should take care that the repair will be done by a rigger with sewing & patching skills or by PD & ALL 0-3 cfpm fabric & the White Nylon "E" thread will be from PD ONLY & are UNDER 2 YEARS since left PD.

No other materials are approved to repair PD reserve canopies.

Reserve canopies can be repaired according to the canopy mfg. instructions & limits & NO need to buy a new reserve.

Be Safe !!!

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Mr. Peek,

May I re-phrase your advice?

Basically, the FAA encourages us to inspect and flake the canopy in accordance with the canopy manufacturer's instructions until they start to conflict with the container manufacturer's instruction. Then you use the container manufacturer's instructions to finish the pack job.

For example, if you are packing a military-surplus C-9 (round) canopy into a 4-pin, military-surplus container, you only have to long-fold the canopy until it is the same width as the container, say 14 inches.

However, when you try to pack that same military surplus canopy into a Butler pilot emergency parachute container, through loops interfere ... so you have to long-fold the canopy to half the width of the container, say 7 inches.

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Basically, the FAA encourages us to inspect and flake the canopy in accordance with the canopy manufacturer's instructions until they start to conflict with the container manufacturer's instruction. Then you use the container manufacturer's instructions to finish the pack job.



I most definitely agree with that interpretation. (I don't know which of my above posts you were responding too, but that's OK. Perhaps it was one where I was asking a rhetorical question.)

Simplified explanations are bothersome to me because the simplification can often cause the explanation to become incomplete, and incomplete can progress to incorrect.

Then it can become "common knowledge" after being spoken so many times, and soon everyone is spouting the same (incomplete) explanation.

Another example: How many riggers say that they "Pro-pack" a reserve. They most certainly do not, not unless they are packing it like a main, which would be scary, wouldn't it?

Instead they should be saying that they flake the canopy standing up (like the beginning of a Pro-pack), then place it on the ground and continue with the remaining really important stuff.

The simplification of saying "Pro-pack" is not good.

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Slight hijack here because something struck me wrong.

Oh, please :S.

PRO is an acronym for 'Proper RAM-air orientation." The only difference between Propacking a main and a reserve is the huge amount of care taken packing that reserve, and the fact that the nose is spread out to take air/inflate quickly, and the tail is neatly flaked and not pulled around the whole pack job. I grant you that the last few steps are done on the floor. But it is still a PRO pack.

Whole different animal from a flat pack or a roll pack, where the canopy is laid out on its side and treated as a single unit.

I can PRO pack on the floor. I can side (flat) pack standing up.

These definition have to do with the orientation of the canopy when packing, and have nothing to do with whether you are packing standing up or on the floor.

I PRO pack lots of reserves every week ... mostly on the floor :P.

Best,
D

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I grant you that the last few steps are done on the floor. But it is still a PRO pack.



You and I know that, but not everyone does.

Say a student learning to pack has several types of "flat" pack jobs described to them, e.g., stack pack, roll pack, etc. They see an experienced jumper flaking their canopy standing up, roll the nose, roll the tail around the canopy and throw it down.

They ask their rigger what kind of pack job that is, and the answer is "pro-pack". They ask a rigger, "What kind of pack job did you use on my reserve."

My answer would not be simply "pro-pack". I'm just recommending that others not throw this name around without explanation.

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The only difference between Propacking a main and a reserve is the huge amount of care taken packing that reserve...



I bet I can hijack a thread too.:) Rhetorical question- Why aren't main canopy pack jobs given the same care? It's only our lives.

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The only difference between Propacking a main and a reserve is the huge amount of care taken packing that reserve...



I bet I can hijack a thread too.:) Rhetorical question- Why aren't main canopy pack jobs given the same care? It's only our lives.



Why? Because we all want to make the next load. When I was in DeLand I jumped with an old school jumper from peru and found it quite interesting to watch him flat pack his main... My inexperienced and careful pro-packing was only marginally faster than his flat pack...

So I removed the reserve today so it can be shipped off to PD for the repair. I'll see how good the manufacturer applied patches look... maybe post some photos of my repaired "flat tire". For the record i'd rather a patch on my reserve than on my main.

-Michael

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[For the record i'd rather a patch on my reserve than on my main.

-Michael



Why?

BTW, the "hospital" at PD is very nicely appointed, I've been there to watch a canopy go through the entire cycle, and they are incredibly thorough, so if there is anything else about the reserve that you missed, it's extremely unlikely that they'll miss it. Did you visit the PD factory while you were at Deland?

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Another example: How many riggers say that they "Pro-pack" a reserve. They most certainly do not, not unless they are packing it like a main, which would be scary, wouldn't it?



Well, if you're following the canopy manufacturer's instructions, it is, indeed, very likely that the reserves are PRO-packed. They are PRO-packed with the nose well exposed.

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Instead they should be saying that they flake the canopy standing up (like the beginning of a Pro-pack), then place it on the ground and continue with the remaining really important stuff.

The simplification of saying "Pro-pack" is not good.



Why? The only real difference I can see is in the orientation of the nose before you lay the canopy on the ground.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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Why? The only real difference I can see is in the orientation of the nose before you lay the canopy on the ground.



I know, it seems like a small thing, but the devil is in the details. A lot of skydiving knowledge is being passed along without important explanations, until it finally becomes incorrect.

I just think I owe explanations to less knowledgeable skydivers that are as complete as possible.

(I am having the temptation to provide another example, like "line dump" but I'll stop here and let Derek carry on if he cares to.)

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[For the record i'd rather a patch on my reserve than on my main.

-Michael



Why?

BTW, the "hospital" at PD is very nicely appointed, I've been there to watch a canopy go through the entire cycle, and they are incredibly thorough, so if there is anything else about the reserve that you missed, it's extremely unlikely that they'll miss it. Did you visit the PD factory while you were at Deland?



Why? I use my main every time I jump and it will end up with lots of wear. I believe a patch is an additional wear area. The reserve merely sits packed in it's container should I need it. A properly installed patch won't hinder a reserve from working.

I know a lot of jumpers view the reserve as a piece of black magic but at the end of the day it's just another parachute trimmed and packed a little differently to open quicker and more reliably.

I was in DeLand in the beginning of December and did tours of PD, UPT and JumpShack.

-Michael

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[For the record i'd rather a patch on my reserve than on my main.

-Michael



Why?

BTW, the "hospital" at PD is very nicely appointed, I've been there to watch a canopy go through the entire cycle, and they are incredibly thorough, so if there is anything else about the reserve that you missed, it's extremely unlikely that they'll miss it. Did you visit the PD factory while you were at Deland?



Why? I use my main every time I jump and it will end up with lots of wear. I believe a patch is an additional wear area. The reserve merely sits packed in it's container should I need it. A properly installed patch won't hinder a reserve from working.

I know a lot of jumpers view the reserve as a piece of black magic but at the end of the day it's just another parachute trimmed and packed a little differently to open quicker and more reliably.

-Michael



Fair enough. I don't mind patches on my main, because I see them each time I pack. I don't think I'd like a patch on my never-deployed reserve, as the necessity of a patch would indicate something inside the reserve pack tray is rubbing or causing some other form of wear.

I'm speaking out of my ass, but I suspect *most* tears in mains are due to weeds, obstacles, line burn, grommet/apex problems, etc. I can see those each and every time I pack. Therefore, I'd prefer to see my main having patches vs my reserve.
Great that you were able to see those manufacturing facilities. It's very impressive to see how much design and care go into what we use in our sport, isn't it?

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To be honest I'm a little disappointed to have holes in either of my parachutes. From a soon to be rigger's point of view I'm okay jumping it but for sure it's going to take a hit when I sell the rig. Just imagine how many people would crap themselves about jumping with a patched reserve. These things are meant to open, they're meant to work. 4 extra seams won't matter. I guess it's good incentive not to dream of downsizing for a long time yet.

-Michael

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Personally (not a rigger)? I would buy a new reserve after figuring out how the hole got there in the first place and fixing that problem.

OTOH, if you're going to keep it, logic tells me that one should put the patch on...I mean, why leave a hole there when a patch will close it up? I don't see that a patch will degrade teh reserve's performance or reliability.

There's a lot I don't know, though. Just my current opinion.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Just wanted to give everyone an update. Some time ago the reserve came back from PD. One nicely applied factory patch. So I packed it and worried no more.

To those who figured the lines should be cut off and the canopy should be donated to a school I can confirm that patches or not it works just fine.

My first save as a rigger was my own. Do I buy myself a bottle of wine or hurry the @#[email protected]#$ up repacking it before the woman sees it out of the container and asks questions?

-Michael

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Damn right on that point. Somehow I must have packed a lineover. Still don't understand how it happened. One side of the canopy didn't inflate and when it did there was clearly a problem. I don't recall doing anything different when I packed it either. 2 chops in 80 jumps - not a good average.

-Michael

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Hi hackish, congratulations for your first reserve ride as a rigger but don't make it an habit. You have proved that a reserve with a patch works exactely like a reserve with no patch. And for those people who are still fussy about a patch on the reserve, look closely at the airplanes you are jumping from. There are full of patches all approved by a FAA aviation mechanics. Are you jumping from Twin Otter once in a while...then those airplanes are generally more than 20 years old, have been used as bush airplanes, have seen more than rough landings from the desert to the north pole and have seen many repairs and patches all over the place and you know what... you still jump from them.
Be confident to airplanes mechanics, they are pro and they know what to do. Be confident to your rigger, trust him or her more than your mother, they know what to do and if by any chance you are not happy with your rigger, find another one or quit the sport and for airplanes if you don't trust the mechanics and inspection system well use the boat to travel.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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