Webbing question

[NSEMN8R 0]

I have this weird thing going on with the legstraps on my '91 Javelin.

It's like the outside edges are shrinking so it's kind of "cupped" now. On one leg it's only happening on one edge so the leg strap is now curved like a banana.

Anybody seen this before or know what causes it?

[davelepka 4]

Maybe spending 16 years looped in a circle, with some of that time under load, still looped in a circle.

Just a guess.

[TowerTopper 0]

My first rig (94 Javelin) did the same thing. I figured the reinforced edges were holding up ok while the weave in the center of the webbing was stretching from lots of use allowing for the cupped look. It didn't seem like an issue to me. I sold the rig a couple of years ago and it's still in use at the DZ today.

[NSEMN8R 0]

Could be? But why would being looped in a circle make just the edges shrink? Also, my Eclipse has had it's leg straps looped in a circle for almost as long and the webbing is still flat. I've been looking at a lot of old gear and haven't come across another one that's doing this.

[davelepka 4]

Are the Eclipse leg straps two-layer? It looks like the Jav leg straps are, and if one layer shrinks or stretches differently than the other, the leg strap won't be straight anymore.

Just another guess.

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

My first rig (94 Javelin) did the same thing. I figured the reinforced edges were holding up ok while the weave in the center of the webbing was stretching from lots of use allowing for the cupped look. It didn't seem like an issue to me. I sold the rig a couple of years ago and it's still in use at the DZ today.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about it breaking either. It does look kind of weird though. I think it's more likely that the edges shrunk than the middle stretched out. One thought I had was maybe the edges of the webbing rub on the inside edge of the hardware and the friction from the being tightened and loosed a couple thousand times caused it?

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

Are the Eclipse leg straps two-layer? It looks like the Jav leg straps are, and if one layer shrinks or stretches differently than the other, the leg strap won't be straight anymore.

Just another guess.

Nope. The Jav is 1 layer and the eclipse is two.

Thanks for the guess though.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

My older (92, I think?) Javelin is doing the same thing. I was told that as long at the yellow binding thread along the edge is intact, the structural integrity of the strap is fine. Comments?

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Guys,

That yellow thread is not a binding thread or a structural thread. It is a tracer thread and it is there to tell the weavers that all is well in the weaving process. If the yellow moves to some other location in the webbing it tells them that all is not well and to stop and make corrections with the weaving machine.

JerryBaumchen

[dumstuntzz 0]

HMMMM... could this harness have been constructed using needle woven webbing instead of shuttle woven? rite off the roll i have seen needle woven webbing exhibit this curved "feature". to determine if you have needle or shuttle woven webbing, ,fold the webbing in half,lengthwise,so that the edges are next to each other.are they identical,or does one edge look like its daisy chained?if the edges are identical,you have shuttle woven webbing.if one edge is daisy chained its needle woven.

[phildthedildo 0]

As a rule, needle woven webbings and tapes are not acceptable for use in load bearing areas on man rated products.

[RIGGER 0]

Please be corrected.

The class 1A needle loom woven webbing & tapes are approved by the US Military & made to meet Mil-Spec.

You might see webbing & tapes which are needle loom woven in a military system.

The class 1 shuttle loom woven webbing is far better but these machines are getting old & needs a lot to keep them in service.

From BRM website:

Mil-Spec / PIA-Spec Webbing, Parachute and Ballooning Applications
Nylon - Kevlar® - Nomex® and Textured Nylon are just a few of the many fibers used by Bally Ribbon Mills to manufacture the highest quality of woven narrow fabrics for "critical use" applications. No substitute is adequate for military specification webbing and tapes where high performance, process control, and complete traceability is required to maintain life support and systems.
Since the PIA (Parachute International Association) has taken control of the narrow fabric Mil-Specs, Bally Ribbon plays an instrumental roll in this development. Bally offers both Mil-Spec and PIA-Spec webbing.

Bally continues to meet the demands of the parachute industry by offering both Class 1 (Critical use, shuttleloom), Class 1a (critical use, shuttleless/needle loom), and Class 2 (non-critical use, shuttleless/needle loom) material.

CLASS 1, Shuttleloom weaving is a traditional method that utilizes a uniform woven edge on both sides of the webbing. This construction has been necessary to minimize failure due to abrasion at the edges of narrow fabrics. Research has been conducted conclusively by the members of PIA that substantiate the importance of Shuttleloom construction.

A large portion of Bally Ribbon Mill’s production still consists of shuttleloom weaving. We maintain excess capacity of shuttlelooms and have no immediate plan to discontinue our shuttleloom capacity.

When safe deliveries of payloads are required, shuttleloom production is the correct choice.

http://www.ballyribbon.com/milspec.htm

Happy New Year !!!

[riggerrob 558]

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As a rule, needle woven webbings and tapes are not acceptable for use in load bearing areas on man rated products.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You are quoting an old textbook.
Your comments are valid for older styles of tape-weaving looms.

A few years ago, Joe Crotwell (retired US Navy test jumper who specialized in drop testing and probably forgot more about parachute rigging than the next 90 Master Riggers ever knew) explained to me how needle-woven Type 7 webbing was as strong as shuttle-woven webbing and much easier to source.

Similarly, a couple of Symposia ago, a rep' from Bally Ribbon Mills gave a seminar about how the latest models of tape-weaving looms can produce needle-woven tapes that are as strong as older, shuttle-woven tapes. He explained - in considerable detail - about the three different ways to finish edges on MIL SPEC tapes.

[drjump 0]

Question---Do your leg straps, on this rig, loosen on opening?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Hi Guys,

That yellow thread is not a binding thread or a structural thread. It is a tracer thread and it is there to tell the weavers that all is well in the weaving process. If the yellow moves to some other location in the webbing it tells them that all is not well and to stop and make corrections with the weaving machine.

JerryBaumchen

Jerry... thought the yellow thread in Type 7 webbing was that plus a "codding" thread to identify the webbing as being Type 7? Definitely not just a binding thread.


Anyway... to the OP & Et All... I have a Talon 94 with about the same amount of wear on the webbing on the leg straps as shown in the pics the OP put up.

From Sunpath's SB SP03 – Adjustable Main Lift Web Harnesses Issued July 19, 2004

What the OP pictured appears to be about "Grade 2" wear: "Minor Hook & Loop type abrasion. Minor abrasion from normal use similar to that of legstrap webbing through a friction adapter."

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Zig,

You are correct, different color is used on different types of webbing; i.e., I think Type 8 is red but I am too lazy to go get some out.

JerryBaumchen

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Hi Zig,

You are correct, different color is used on different types of webbing; i.e., I think Type 8 is red but I am too lazy to go get some out.

JerryBaumchen

I thought Type 8 webbing was coded with a single black thread down the center of the weave? ... which always made me wonder since a lot of the Type 8 webbing you see used in skydiving is Black... so how do you see the codding thread? Anyway, I think too Type 6 webbing is coded with a single red thread down the center... not sure if there is a webbing Type coded with red threads down the side... like Type 7, but different.

[mark 102]

Quote

I thought Type 8 webbing was coded with a single black thread down the center of the weave? ... which always made me wonder since a lot of the Type 8 webbing you see used in skydiving is Black... so how do you see the codding thread? Anyway, I think too Type 6 webbing is coded with a single red thread down the center... not sure if there is a webbing Type coded with red threads down the side... like Type 7, but different.

You can still see the black tracer on black Type 8 if you look closely enough. It does look a lot like just the center of the weave unless you have another color Type 8 next to it to compare. Type 13 (Jump Shack harnesses) has black tracers on the edges, much more difficult to see with black webbing. Type 12 (buffer strips and confluence wraps) has red tracers on the edges.

Mark

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Well... I didn't say that you couldn't see the black tracer thread on black Type 8... just that its kinda odd that the most often seen Type 8 is black and it has a black tracer thread.


Anyway, I went looking to see if I could find a copy (.pdf) of MIL-W-4088 on the web (pun! )... or PIA-W-4088 (same thing ???), but no dice. I suppose its all in Poynters too, but probably hard to find... like everything else in that *&^(*&%( book!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Zig & Mark,

Yup, it is T-12 w/red thread. I told you I was too lazy to go look. And I should never trust my memory.

JerryBaumchen

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Yep! You da-man.

[Gary73 8]

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Anybody seen this before or know what causes it?

Some jumpers (and riggers) run a lighter flame along the edge of webbing like that to singe off the fuzz. If that's done too slowly or maybe too often it can cause the edge of the webbing to shrink. I don't know what effect that would have on the strength of the webbing, but harness structural failures are so rare that it probably isn't anything to worry about. Notice that I said "probably".

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, I have seen that wear pattern on many Javelins.
I have also seen it on a molar strap made of Type 7 webbing and a belt (you know, one of those gadgets that holds your pants up) made of Type17 webbing.
I have concluded that the wear is caused by sliding it through a buckle a few thousand times.

[ericfradet 0]

I have the same feeling like Rob, cause it is just the big number of use