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joeylad

stilletto,crossfire or springo?

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I'll agree that typically 100 jumps isn't even close to enough experience for a less conservative canopy such as a Stiletto. It is simply a case by case basis.
The ONLY advice anyone should take seriously is that of the expert's at their home dropzone. That's what would be prudent.




I don't think that would be prudent. If, as you say, 100 jumps 'typically' isn't enough, than the prudent thing to do is just not to put anyone with 100 jumps under such canopies.

Even an expert can be wrong. If the expert gives a newbie the go-ahead to jump a Stiletto, and it turns out to be a mistake, the result is severe injury or death.

If the expert were to err in the other way and restrict a jumper from jumping such a canopy, and in truth this jumper could have handled it with 100 jumps, the result of this mistake is simply a gifted jumper ended up putting 200 jumps on a more conservative canopy.

So if you guess wrong in one direction - severe injury or death. Guess wrong the other way - 200 jumps on a conservative canopy.

I'm not sure how you define 'prudent', but where I come from the latter choice fits the bill.

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You have no qualifications what so ever to be making such statements.



Funny JP. Qualified for what? What qualifications are required to suggest the advice of local experts only and consider these forums for entertainment? I think not.
I've been around a lot JP. You know that. I call it like i see it.

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Ask Kallend about the Stiletto. He started jumping one at very low jump numbers. I'm pretty sure he's still alive.



I really could care less about one person that started jumping a Stiletto too early and luckily didn't get hurt. Truth is, for every person who downsized too aggressively and made it out alive, there are probably 10 others who can't say the same thing. I bet if you asked him, he would even say that it was too early for him to be on an aggressive wing like a Stiletto.

It's really pretty ridiculous to think that 100 landings is enough experience to fly an elliptical canopy. It's even more ridiculous that you are putting these thoughts into beginner skydiver's minds. But whatever... hopefully they have enough common sense not to listen to you.

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Yeah - get more jumps first - But since you asked - fwiw, my choice would be the x-fire 2 over the stilletto as it has better openings and a longer recovery arc. I can't comment on the Springo though as I haven't jumped one.

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I think that this might be helpful:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3044109;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Currently I'm in similar position thinking about downsizing. At the moment I fly SA2 150 with 1.2 WL. Last season 120 jumps including 100 on SA2. In the meantime I tried Cobalt 135 with 1.4 WL and I loved it. So I keep both thinking which one I should jump for the next few months or year. The truth is that I saw few people with more jumps than me (lets say about 500) jumping that Cobalt 135 or similar canopies with terrible landings, who might not put enough attention to canopy flying or having bad habits. I already attended two canopy flying courses and since that all landings I try to do as good as is possible - not just land, but land it properly starting from the approach (1000ft), keeping the patern and finishing with nice flare.
In the case of that Cobalt 135 I didn't have too much problem to fly/land it any time since, but ... There is always "but" on the back of mine mind, what if something unpredictable will happen? That's only what I'm afraid of - it's like an exam which I have to pass. It is very tempting to fly it though.
regards
Janusz
Back to Poland... back home.

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I think that this might be helpful:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3044109;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Currently I'm in similar position thinking about downsizing. At the moment I fly SA2 150 with 1.2 WL. Last season 120 jumps including 100 on SA2. In the meantime I tried Cobalt 135 with 1.4 WL and I loved it. So I keep both thinking which one I should jump for the next few months or year. The truth is that I saw few people with more jumps than me (lets say about 500) jumping that Cobalt 135 or similar canopies with terrible landings, who might not put enough attention to canopy flying or having bad habits. I already attended two canopy flying courses and since that all landings I try to do as good as is possible - not just land, but land it properly starting from the approach (1000ft), keeping the patern and finishing with nice flare.
In the case of that Cobalt 135 I didn't have too much problem to fly/land it any time since, but ... There is always "but" on the back of mine mind, what if something unpredictable will happen? That's only what I'm afraid of - it's like an exam which I have to pass. It is very tempting to fly it though.
regards


Janusz



USPA out together a "Risk Quotient" Checklist (http://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/RiskQuotient.pdf) (clicky someone?) that was a very effective way to see how much risk a person had jumping their canopy. We have been discussing it at the provincial level in Alberta and will probably be adopting it as a tool as most of the landing accidents lately would have scored in the "High Risk" or "Scary" Categories. It is also a good tool to determine what you need to do to fly your canopy effectively (training, drills, currency, etc). Hats off to those who developed the quiz and checklist as it can be an effective training tool to work through with someone after they have had a near miss as to what is contributing to their performance and what they can do about it to reduce their risk.

Have a good one.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

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I'll agree that typically 100 jumps isn't even close to enough experience for a less conservative canopy such as a Stiletto. It is simply a case by case basis.
The ONLY advice anyone should take seriously is that of the expert's at their home dropzone. That's what would be prudent.




I don't think that would be prudent. If, as you say, 100 jumps 'typically' isn't enough, than the prudent thing to do is just not to put anyone with 100 jumps under such canopies.

Even an expert can be wrong. If the expert gives a newbie the go-ahead to jump a Stiletto, and it turns out to be a mistake, the result is severe injury or death.

If the expert were to err in the other way and restrict a jumper from jumping such a canopy, and in truth this jumper could have handled it with 100 jumps, the result of this mistake is simply a gifted jumper ended up putting 200 jumps on a more conservative canopy.

So if you guess wrong in one direction - severe injury or death. Guess wrong the other way - 200 jumps on a conservative canopy.

I'm not sure how you define 'prudent', but where I come from the latter choice fits the bill.



Well Ok then. I suppose the OP should jump a Navigator 250 or wait...better make it a 280 for safety's sake, for 4000 jumps or so. That way he'll be guaranteed to be injury and death free......Right?.....But maybe that's not "prudent" advice either...is it? It's very simple sir...YOU have no idea what to tell this gentleman no matter what your jump numbers are.
Whatever.....

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You know, in a few more years and another 1000 jumps or so you'll be embarrassed by what you've said in this thread.

It'll hurt more after you bury some friends for similar choices that you're recommending.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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WHY are you so persistant?


If your country sees too many deaths because of people jumping too small and/or too aggressive canopies, you may very well end up with canopy rules like lots of other countries around the world already have. Then its byebye personal evaluation/skills and hello hard rules like no canopy smaller than 150 before 400 jumps regardless of WL, no stiletto before 400 jumps and no crossfire before 700 jumps.

These rules have been thought up by people who have seen quite enough blood and death because the average jumper thinks he's very much ABOVE average. Do the math.

A stiletto is no canopy for a newbie, let alone a crossfire, and yes 100 jumps is newbie. So is 400 jumps in my book.

BTW it's not landing as such that is the problem, it's the unexpected situations like getting cut off, landing out, and the openings of a hp canopy are also a potential cause for trouble. My country saw a very large increase of cutaways following diving linetwists a few yrs ago, because people were jumping canopies they were not ready for. With our canopy rules, those cutaways have gone back to normal/very low levels. So have landing incidents BTW. Of course these rules aren't perfect and various people are "forced" to jump a canopy size/type when they could handle something faster. But this is what you end up with when people aren't sensible about canopy choice.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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WHY are you so persistant?




Jee is persistant because he wants to be entertained (see one of his earlier postings). His subsequent postings, when read with this in mind, back that up.

Sounds like the original poster has got things figured out and has already got some canopy training. He also seems receptive to the solid advice being presented in the thread.

Jee will continue to get his jollies stirring up the pot for the sake of stirring up the pot. AggieDave hit it dead on and hopefully Jee learns with experience or fades to the background as time goes on (the sport tends to be self correcting)......

Have a good one, I'm off to Eloy for the Boogie

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

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You know, in a few more years and another 1000 jumps or so you'll be embarrassed by what you've said in this thread.

It'll hurt more after you bury some friends for similar choices that you're recommending.



I'm not embarrassed now nor will I be ANY time in the future for advising a new jumper to disregard any and all info here on this forum. I've never recommended any type or size of canopy for anybody to use. I clearly am not qualified to do that being a newbie and all. And I know you're not either.
My daughter jumps at Coulter Field is that where you work? Jump?

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>YOU have no idea what to tell this gentleman no matter what your jump numbers are.

And neither do you.

Your advice is poor, and will result in more dead and injured skydivers than better advice would. If you don't care, then so be it; there are lots of people out there who couldn't give a shit about other jumpers. But some people do care whether or not newer jumpers are injured or killed - so expect people to call you on your bad advice.

(Of course, if you don't care about people getting injured or killed, I wouldn't expect you to care about people calling you on your bad advice, so I'm sure it will all work out.)

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>YOU have no idea what to tell this gentleman no matter what your jump numbers are.

And neither do you.

Your advice is poor, and will result in more dead and injured skydivers than better advice would. If you don't care, then so be it; there are lots of people out there who couldn't give a shit about other jumpers. But some people do care whether or not newer jumpers are injured or killed - so expect people to call you on your bad advice.

(Of course, if you don't care about people getting injured or killed, I wouldn't expect you to care about people calling you on your bad advice, so I'm sure it will all work out.)



I beg your pardon. What the fuck are you talking about?

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>YOU have no idea what to tell this gentleman no matter what your jump numbers are.

And neither do you.

Your advice is poor, and will result in more dead and injured skydivers than better advice would. If you don't care, then so be it; there are lots of people out there who couldn't give a shit about other jumpers. But some people do care whether or not newer jumpers are injured or killed - so expect people to call you on your bad advice.

(Of course, if you don't care about people getting injured or killed, I wouldn't expect you to care about people calling you on your bad advice, so I'm sure it will all work out.)



I beg your pardon. What the fuck are you talking about?



It was his nice way of calling you an a....

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>YOU have no idea what to tell this gentleman no matter what your jump numbers are.

And neither do you.

Your advice is poor, and will result in more dead and injured skydivers than better advice would. If you don't care, then so be it; there are lots of people out there who couldn't give a shit about other jumpers. But some people do care whether or not newer jumpers are injured or killed - so expect people to call you on your bad advice.

(Of course, if you don't care about people getting injured or killed, I wouldn't expect you to care about people calling you on your bad advice, so I'm sure it will all work out.)



I beg your pardon. What the fuck are you talking about?



It was his nice way of calling you an a....



Oh I love it when I'm called that!

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