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joeylad

stilletto,crossfire or springo?

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Hi all! i will soon be puchasing a new canopy and my mind was made up-stilletto,but one thing is putting me off and thats its rep for bad openings.
Should I go for somthing similer like a springo or a crossfire as I have always jumped PD and am a bit causious about trying somthing else? Is there much differance in riser pressure, flare,openings etc.what are the pros and cons basically.
Any info would be greatly appreciated thanks.

Blue ones
Joe

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Hi all! i will soon be puchasing a new canopy and my mind was made up-stilletto,but one thing is putting me off and thats its rep for bad openings.
Should I go for somthing similer like a springo or a crossfire as I have always jumped PD and am a bit causious about trying somthing else? Is there much differance in riser pressure, flare,openings etc.what are the pros and cons basically.
Any info would be greatly appreciated thanks.

Blue ones
Joe



Think the Crossfire and Springo are quite a bit more elliptical than the Stiletto. I have 200 jumps on a Stiletto 150 loaded to about 1.5, that was 7 years ago when I left the sport. I purchased it when when I had about 180 jumps and really should not have been flying that canopy. I got a away with it and now since I have returned to the sport I am a little older and wiser and would not recommend any one jumping a full elliptical with 100 or 200 jumps.

If I where you I would stick with your Sabre2 and learn to fly the hell out of the thing before changing to a more radical smaller elliptical.

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I wouldn't worry too much about what every body is saying about having more jumps. It really is an individual thing. The people on the forums have no idea of what your skill level is. They can only go by averages. Maybe you can handle an elliptical canopy and maybe you can't. As long as your instructors are on board with your choice and sizing you're probably going to be ok.
I wouldn't worry about the Stiletto. The opening problems are a myth. I have several hundred jumps on Stilettos with no spin ups or line twists or anything yet. In fact my Sabre 2 that I bought brand new had several openings with line twists in the 100 or so jumps I put on it.

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I wouldn't worry too much about what every body is saying about having more jumps. It really is an individual thing. The people on the forums have no idea of what your skill level is.



Yeah, he's right it is an individual thing and so are the consequences. The incident forum is filled with the special people who were ahead of the curve and knew they would not get hurt as others who rushed things because they are "special". The lucky ones end up with bruises and broken bones the unlucky ones end up paralized, quadraplegic or dead. In eight years in this sport anyone I have seen (myself included) that rushed to downsize and go eliptical ended up getting hurt.
Kirk

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Maybe you can handle an elliptical canopy and maybe you can't.



In that case, the answer is simple, don't jump an elliptical canopy. There are other good choices available.

Once you can say, with a level of informed confidence, that you can handle an elliptical canopy, THEN jump one and find out if you're right.

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I wouldn't worry too much about what every body is saying about having more jumps. It really is an individual thing. The people on the forums have no idea of what your skill level is. They can only go by averages. Maybe you can handle an elliptical canopy and maybe you can't. As long as your instructors are on board with your choice and sizing you're probably going to be ok.
I wouldn't worry about the Stiletto. The opening problems are a myth. I have several hundred jumps on Stilettos with no spin ups or line twists or anything yet. In fact my Sabre 2 that I bought brand new had several openings with line twists in the 100 or so jumps I put on it.



It is not a myth. The Stiletto is a High Performance Canopy and there are risks that one assumes when jumping one.

I have over 1000 jumps on my Stiletto with two of them being Spinetto's requiring cutaways. Dont get me wrong, it is a great canopy, but it requires experience to jump it safely.

My last Spinetto was in Lost Prairie 2006 and it was a close run thing. Half the drop zone ended up watching (the noise of two low openings from the 15 way I was on got them looking in my direction for the "Real Show").

I ended up doing up an article for Canpara cause there were some lessons learned and I think it bears repeatining here:

"If You Are Going To Jump An Elliptical Parachute….

The trend the last few years is for people to start jumping smaller, high performance parachutes in a relatively short amount of time. When elliptical parachutes first started to show up in the marketplace, it was recommended that one have at least 400 jumps before jumping one. Now, for a variety of reasons, it seems there are many cases of skydivers with under a couple of hundred jumps to be jumping elliptical parachutes with relatively high wing loadings.

There are many arguments both for and against people jumping the parachutes they think they can handle. I just wanted to relate the events from a recent jump that I made at the 2006 Lost Prairie Boogie:

- Nice Mad John 2 Point 15 Way
- Base Break-off at 4000 feet
- I pulled at 2400
- Parachute sniveled to 1600 (not overly unusual)
- Mild line twists for a couple of hundred feet
- Parachute locked into nasty line twists at 1440 feet (became very ground hungry)
- Decided to chop it at 1200 feet (the “32” painted on the runway was getting way too big)
- Finally got rid of it at 700 feet (very HARD PULL)
- Pulled at 460 feet (1.5 seconds after cutaway) – very unstable after the cutaway and needed to do a barrel roll and a front loop to get stable and avoid severe line-twists in the reserve at a low altitude in an area with numerous obstacles. Sacrificed altitude for stability but figured it was the best of a bad situation. Doing freefall math at that altitude is somewhat annoying and the “32” on the runway certainly had my attention.
- Reserve at “Snatch” at 385 feet (another bottle of wine for Aidan). Cypress 2 fired after the Reserve Handle was pulled.
- Enough time to riser turn into the wind, check the line for obstacles, release brakes and flare.

I kind of figure since I am wing-loading my parachute to 1.4 to 1 and have a thousand jumps on the critter, a junior jumper would not have realized at the 76 second mark when the Stiletto locked in that it was not salvageable at the altitude I was at."

The ProTrack Log of the jump is attached to drive home the point how quickly this all happens. I was not taking my time as I was VERY AWARE of the altitude I was at as I was dealing with the problem to the best of my ability.

The original poster of this thread is jumping a canopy that is an appropriate size for his weight and experience. There are a lot of resources out there for him to learn to fly that canopy to its fullest potential before downsizing.

Going to a Stiletto, Crossfire or Spingo at that experience without proper training increases the risk of injury or worse.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

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Jee.. I'm not trying to talk crap about you but I've seen some of your other posts and I think some of your advice is a little irresponsible.

You have to remember that with your 400 jumps, people with less jumps look at your advice like it is the right thing. You have to be careful what you tell someone on here - they may take it literally.

Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.

Go with a Sabre2, man. You won't be disappointed with it.

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Jee.. I'm not trying to talk crap about you but I've seen some of your other posts and I think some of your advice is a little irresponsible.

You have to remember that with your 400 jumps, people with less jumps look at your advice like it is the right thing. You have to be careful what you tell someone on here - they may take it literally.

Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.

Go with a Sabre2, man. You won't be disappointed with it.



Your just a wimp... I think he should be looking for an all sail JVX. :ph34r:;)
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Jee.. I'm not trying to talk crap about you but I've seen some of your other posts and I think some of your advice is a little irresponsible.

You have to remember that with your 400 jumps, people with less jumps look at your advice like it is the right thing. You have to be careful what you tell someone on here - they may take it literally.

Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.

Go with a Sabre2, man. You won't be disappointed with it.



Interesting comment. Nonetheless, my point is to NOT listen to any advice given on this forum including mine. How do you know I have 400 jumps? There is no way anybody can get any accurate advice on these forums from someone possibly half the globe away. The only reason anybody should be reading here is for entertainment purposes only. Anything else is in and of itself irresponsible.
And by the way, ANY elliptical canopy is more apt to spin up than a rectangular planform canopy. Not just a Stiletto.

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Jee

There is nothing wrong with posting for the "entertainment value" if that is what turns your crank. Don't present it as advice

Perhaps your sigline should be a disclaimer not to take anything you say seriously since you just want to be entertained

After you clean up the carnage from a few people who downsized too quickly you may see the some of the advice being presented in this thread is spot on.

Regards

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

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It's very simple, if your asking this question you are not ready to increase wingloads or downsize. Ask yourself first two things, Am I getting Max performance out of my current canopy?" "Am I confident enough to downsize?"

The best answer to this question is an air ticket to Empuria Brava (or other dropzone) and do a piloting course, One of the most impotant things I learnt in a Piloting course is that when I am ready to downsize or increase performance and loading, then I won't need to ask, I will know it.

....thanks Brian
When I go, I want to pass away in my sleep, just like my dear old Grandmother, NOT screaming like the passengers in the car she was driving.

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Interesting comment. Nonetheless, my point is to NOT listen to any advice given on this forum including mine. How do you know I have 400 jumps? There is no way anybody can get any accurate advice on these forums from someone possibly half the globe away. The only reason anybody should be reading here is for entertainment purposes only. Anything else is in and of itself irresponsible.



I've always found the web a great source of background information, think of the huge amount of experience there is among these forums. I think of it as something good when i can get info from s/o half the globe away. But then again, maybe we would all have been better off if fire too was never invented to begin with :P

Im sure no one in his/her right mind will just blindly follow advice given in here.

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Just found out that Stilettos may very well be illegal to sell/own in The Netherlands soon:
http://www.nu.nl/news/1358189/11/Hirsch_Ballin_wil_verbod_op_stiletto%27s.html :ph34r::ph34r:



Just a note: dragon2 was making a joke - witness the smileys.

The article is about knives including stilettos. One doesn't have to read Dutch to understand it, although one has to be able to tolerate a lot of vowels.

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Thanks for help.I should have updated my profile realy i have got 300 jumps and have done canopy course along with some coaching inbetween.If the stilletto is slightly less eliptical than the other two ill demo one first and take it from there.



In terms of control sensitivity (intentional or not) the Stiletto is "more elliptical" than newer designs like the Crossfire and Extreme FX. My Stiletto 120 was more sensitive to control input than the Crossfire 109 and Extreme FX 104 I demoed at the same wing loading. It's also more likely to require user input to avoid a spinning malfunction.

The big change over the last fifteen years has been the in recovery arc shape (the Stiletto achieves level flight with no control input following a speed inducing maneuver instead of remaining in a dive until returning to trim speed) and length (the Stiletto recovers in a relatively short distance compared to other aggressive wings of the same size).

Lots of us find the newer behavior more user-friendly - while you can maintain roll angle and stretch the recovery arc of any canopy, you can get away with arriving at your intended heading early when the canopy continues to descend while not turning. The longer recovery arc also gives you more time to get your position adjusted.

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Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.


I don't agree with this comment. How do you know what his skills are? Jump numbers don't mean jack shit. I've seen many skydivers with thousands of jumps that can't land a Navigator. The simple truth is you have no idea what to tell this person. The only people that can are exerienced instructors or safety advisors that can watch him on several jumps. Ask Kallend about the Stiletto. He started jumping one at very low jump numbers. I'm pretty sure he's still alive.

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Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with this comment. How do you know what his skills are? Jump numbers don't mean jack shit. I've seen many skydivers with thousands of jumps that can't land a Navigator.




So what your telling us is that there are guys with 1000's of jumps who can't figure out how to land a canopy.

With this in mind, you can't see how it might be prudent to keep a guy with 100 jumps on a conservative wing?

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Regardless of whether this person has great experience or not, with 116 jumps, Stilettos and Crossfires are NOT what he should be flying, period.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with this comment. How do you know what his skills are? Jump numbers don't mean jack shit. I've seen many skydivers with thousands of jumps that can't land a Navigator.




So what your telling us is that there are guys with 1000's of jumps who can't figure out how to land a canopy.

With this in mind, you can't see how it might be prudent to keep a guy with 100 jumps on a conservative wing?



That's exactly what I'm saying. However, it works both ways. I'll agree that typically 100 jumps isn't even close to enough experience for a less conservative canopy such as a Stiletto. It is simply a case by case basis.
The ONLY advice anyone should take seriously is that of the expert's at their home dropzone. That's what would be prudent.
How much more difficult do you want to make it?

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