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jumper03

New style friction adapters on Javelin leg-straps

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I grounded a rig a few weeks ago because of friction adapters slipping on the leg straps. They are the new two piece adapters, not the old style with the bar in the middle of the box. If you tighten the leg strap and pull straight along the axis of the two pieces - it holds fine. However, if you pull at an angle to the adapter - it slips and slips easily. The jumper would put on the rig, tighten the straps down, arch and *ziiiiip* - loose leg straps. :S

Has anyone else encountered this problem? The only thing I can think of doing is moving the stitch on the leg strap closer to the two pieces so that they do not separate so easily, but I can still loosen the straps just by changing the angle of pull.
Scars remind us that the past is real

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Wow!

You mean these... STAINLESS STEEL FLIP-FLOP LEG STRAP ADJUSTER...

http://www.paragear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=244&parent=34&level=2

... Para Gear Item: HSP888?

As opposed to the more "traditional" type... QUICK FIT ADAPTER - PS70114-1... Para Gear Item: H333 (or the Stainless version, Item: H333SS)?

Over the course of several hundred jumps, the ones on my Jav have gotten a little more cooperative, but no where near what I'd call "loose" or to where they'd "run out" like the more traditional type can. I've never had a problem with them loosening. In fact, when my Jav was new, cinching them down was as hard as getting the things to release after the jump so you could take your rig off.

It doesn't sound like it, but is this a new rig?

I'd doubt that this type of friction adapter could be installed wrong, but I have see the traditional type installed "upside down" and give folks problems until someone recognized the issue.

Another thing I though of, without seeing the rig, the smaller of the two pieces needs to "float" a bit so it can pull down on the webbing when tightend, but maybe I'm wrong? What I'm saying is though, it may not be a matter of... "...moving the stitch on the leg strap closer to the two pieces so that they do not separate so easily...", maybe its the opposite?

Have you compared the "problem rig" to one that doesn't have the problem?

Have you called Sunpath... I realize their customer service isn't the greatest (my experiences), but I'd still call them if I encountered this.

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Those would be the ones!

I did compare to a "non-problem rig" but even on those, I can still make them slip by changing the angle of pull. There is a bit of 'float' between the two pieces on mine and even more on the grounded rig - I believe that is the culprit. The stitch could be movied closer to the two pieces to mitigate the float, but even on my rig, where the stitching is much closer, I can make the thing loosen by changing pull angle.

I'm just trying to gather some data and figure out if this is a one off type of thing or maybe more widespread and I'm missing something. :S

Scars remind us that the past is real

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Weirdness. I'd have never thought that style friction adapter would have a problem running out like the older type sometimes does, but funnier things have happened.

If what you suspect is ture, in lieu of moving the stitch closer, just use some super tack to "tighten" things up and repeat your experiment to see if that takes are of it? After that, you could move the stiching (or just add a new stich line) or just go with the super tack. ummm... edit to add... disclaimer... talk to Sunpath or a Master Rigger first... ;)

I've seen folks with the old style friction adapters that were always running out on them put their rig on, tighten their leg straps, mark it, take the rig back off and then just tack the leg straps (webbing) with a turn or two of super tack "below" the friction adapter... basically making thier leg straps always tight... made the rig "fun" to get on and off, but got em through a weekend of formation loads. :D

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I didnt catch if this was a new rig or not, my guess it is 4-5 years old. If I am correct in what I am thinking, its the way one piece is attached. Sun Path changed the way they attached it shortly after first using the SP88's. I also believe they will do the conversion for free if it fits this situation. I think I remember that being the case:S

The last few years I had more complaints that they didnt let go! Had to teach people to lift the top piece first then try and slide the webbing. This is for putting on or takeing it off.

Give them a call and see if they can help.

J




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I remember being told by Rob that some styles of friction adapter are not entirely compatible with all webbing because of the difference in thickness - let's say between type 7 and type 13.

If I'm correct SunPath stitches a piece of type 8 to their type 7 legstraps to increase the thickness and thus avoid this type of slippage.

Now I'm just a newbie (bored at work) in this area but it might be a point in the right direction.

-Michael

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Hi Steven,
Try this:
Option 1 - contact dave at SunPath
Option 2 - Put another elastic keeper on the legstrap. Put the rig on, tight the legstraps and put one elastic keeper close to the hardware and the one just to keep the remaining strap in the legpouch. Then arch and see if it still does that.
This problem is the relation between the webbing treatment/color "R" and hardware type.
Let us know. Good luck!
ps.: Don't listen to J. He doesn't know anything about Sun Path!;);););)

Gus Marinho

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If I'm correct SunPath stitches a piece of type 8 to their type 7 legstraps to increase the thickness and thus avoid this type of slippage



That is whats nice about jumpshack. The racers webbing was made specifically for the hardware.



Really? Jumpshack specifically contracts special webbing to be made by ?? supplier to go with the hardware used... or is it the other way around... they specifically contract with ?? supplier to forge specific hardware to be used with the webbing they use?

I find it hard to believe JumpShack uses "different" Type 7 on their rigs / leg straps then everyone else.

Also, I've seen Jav's with the "Type 8-sewn-to-the-Type 7" leg straps and I've seen Jav's without that... i.e. just Type 7 leg straps. My Jav has just type 7 leg straps. Don't know if the Type 8 addition was an option I missed when I ordered it (circa 2003) or if it was something they used to do "back when" and don't anymore.

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I think the point is that most of our friction hardware originated from the old military stuff and although it works it was never designed specifically for type 7 webbing. If you look at a piece of type 6 (hope I remember this correctly) webbing or type 13 you see how much thicker it is than the type 7. Some manufacturers have used the thinner stuff on their legstraps and the like because of price.

-Michael

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I dunno... all of that said... but how many 100s of thousands or MILLIONS of skydives have been made with Type 7 webbing for leg straps / main lift webs and traditional or 2-piece friction adapters with no issues what so ever?

I'm all over "build a better mouse trap" and all, but at the same time, you have to balance that with "the enemy of "good enough" is "better""".
;)

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I had this EXACT problem with my Javelin. It worked fine for a year or two. Then one day at Skydive AZ I put it on and when I stood up the leg straps just pulled out about an inch.... hmmm... I grounded my rig and called sunpath.

They were very accomodating. They said that they made quite a few rigs where this leg hardware was freefloating inside the loop of webbing. They said most had no problems but a few encountered this issue. I didn't believe it was a serious safety issue. I believe they would have held fine in an opening shock but I wanted to fix them anyway. They now put a piece of webbing between the pieces of hardware. They repaired mine for free and sent it right back. When I got it back it actually took a lot of strength to tighten and loosen the leg straps. After a while this got much easier.

Call Sunpath and they should take care of you. Just talked to Dave the other day. Great guy.

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I have had this problem with my Wings. Only happens on one leg stap, and it only slips an inch or so when slow, moderate tension is put on it. It doesn't slip when fully loaded, or during quick and heavy tension, like opening shock. I didn't feel it was enough of a problem to ground my rig, i just double check them just before I hit the door, but I do plan on contacting wings this winter to have it taken care of.
_________________________________________

"If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?"

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Hi hackish,

Type 6 is thinner than T-8; also, not as strong.

Just for your education,

JerryBaumchen

PS) Would you like a sample?

PPS) When Para-Flite came out with their Swift rig the main risers were made of T-6 and the harness 3-ring was held on with T-6. And they used aluminum grommets, all to keep the weight down.

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I believe you'd be right on that point. I remember reading in poynter somewhere that the friction buckles were originally designed to work with ty-13 and some other webbing... just can't remember now what the other webbing was.

Another point - I just looked it up. ty-7 is 0.060-0.10" thick while ty-13 is 0.080"-0.120" thick. Maybe the problem comes specifically from the sample of type 7 they used being on the thin side? For curiosity sake does the OP have a means of measuring the thickness?

-Michael

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I grounded my rig and called sunpath.

They were very accommodating. They said that they made quite a few rigs where this leg hardware was free-floating inside the loop of webbing. They said most had no problems but a few encountered this issue.



Bought my rig six years after this post, and still encountered this issue.

First time my rigger sewed an additional piece of webbing to the leg strap to make it thicker. That worked for about six months (100 -150 jumps). Now it started slipping again. Will take it back to my rigger this weekend to see if there is anything else he can do to the last Javelin I will ever buy.

It's great to be accommodating in fixing a problem. It's better to engineer the problem out of existence.
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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I used gaffer's tape on the buckles of one rig to increase the friction. At least one other dz.commer has done the gaffer tape fix too.

That particular buckle variant had a very slippery surface finish and later wasn't seen on that major brand of rig. If the gaffers starts to peel at least it is easy to replace. The jumper loved the result.

Before using the tape I tested putting in other webbing -- like type 12 as one company has done or rougher type 4 tape as another company suggested to me -- but the buckle still tended to slip a little under load, despite the increased bulk.

My fix was a traditional style of buckle, center piece sliding on the main buckle, not the free-floating 2 piece ones. So your mileage might vary. The tape wasn't needed on the slider, just on the part of the main buckle that the webbing jams up against.

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Jump Shack (Parachute Labs) uses Standard Type 13 (black traced edge) Mil Spec. webbing on all of it's harnesses. This Type 13 webbing was originally designed to replace the old cotton webbing harnesses were made of before Nylon. The Hardware we use today is the same. It was designed for cotton webbing. The Nylon Type 13 was designed to specifically replace the cotton and to be used with that hardware.

Tp 7 (Yellow Traced edge) was designed for use on cargo harnesses where they don't come in contact with friction adaptors.

I remember my first piggy back, an old Security system, I would tighten up the leg straps before I got into the plane, tighten them again on the way up and again before exit only to find it was loose after opening.

I learned about the difference in the design purpose of the webbing and selected Type 13 for use on all of my gear. It is more comfortable as it doesn't roll as much and it is stronger and hardware compatible and Oh Yeah it is more expensive.

The military only allows Type 13 on their harnesses.

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It's great to be accommodating in fixing a problem. It's better to engineer the problem out of existence.



I agree. I had a customer who bought a used Jav that had the same problem. Sunpath offered to replace the hardware for just the cost of the new hardware, no labour. But he would have had to pay shipping both ways from Canada. He ended up solving the problem by just having the hardware replaced with good old plated frame and bar friction adapters by Desert Skies Rigging while he happened to be in Eloy. Newer is not always better.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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