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fcajump

Does your DZ require seatbelt use?

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Some of the seat belt systems are little better than nothing. Sitting on the floor and reaching behind to grab the two pieces of seatbelt and thread it thru my main lift web, I realize I'll fling 4-5 feet forward in any accident before I stop. I'm not sure what my injuries will be after that. It's one more great reason to wear your helmet.

While we're on that one, sticking your helmet on your head is not fastening it down for take off. Sticking your helmet on your head and fastening the chin strap is.

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Seat belt compliance has been mostly good in my view, since my return to the sport in 2009-9. What bothers me, however, is too often I see a videographer with a heavy-duty rig on his helmet sitting by the door of an Otter not wearing it or securing it to his chest strap on takeoff. This gives me the willies, and I hate to be the one who points this out, but I do because takeoff and initial climb out is one of the most dangerous parts of any skydive and I'm always thinking about the worst case scenario.
SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

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Unfortunately, no. No Danish C-182 DZ (which is basically all of them) I've ever seen has seatbelts at all. They are present in bigger craft (Caravan, foreign-registered Skyvans used for bigger boogies), but the use is spotty at best. *Sometimes* some people will buckle up, most of the time almost nobody will. It's pretty awful, because it means that no matter how religiously I strap myself, if shit hits the fan, I'm going to die anyway.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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JohnMitchell

Sitting on the floor and reaching behind to grab the two pieces of seatbelt and thread it thru my main lift web, I realize I'll fling 4-5 feet forward in any accident before I stop.



So maybe a simple repositioning of the anchor point would help.

I've noticed the same thing in many aircraft and thought if the anchor point was aft of the jumper position and the belt was snugged up it would do a much better job of minimizing movement in a crash.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers


So maybe a simple repositioning of the anchor point would help.

I've noticed the same thing in many aircraft and thought if the anchor point was aft of the jumper position and the belt was snugged up it would do a much better job of minimizing movement in a crash.

I'm afraid it will meet with resistance because that will put a belt or two within the reach of the door. It will also require retraining all the jumpers. Also, most people feel that they've met the legal requirement, so why bother? Most of them have never been in a forced landing.

Another point I'd like to bitch about. When the seating is on the floor of the plane, some people sit down and lay out like they are in a Lazy Boy recliner. Hey, you're taking up enough room for two people and jamming everyone else up. You're the reason I can't reach a seatbelt after closing the door. Sit up straight and quit being so self centered. >:(

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JohnMitchell

***
So maybe a simple repositioning of the anchor point would help.

I've noticed the same thing in many aircraft and thought if the anchor point was aft of the jumper position and the belt was snugged up it would do a much better job of minimizing movement in a crash.

I'm afraid it will meet with resistance because that will put a belt or two within the reach of the door. It will also require retraining all the jumpers. Also, most people feel that they've met the legal requirement, so why bother? Most of them have never been in a forced landing.


That can be solved by placing a ring you mate the belt with.
Or just simply hand it backwards and someone can clip it together with one of the belts further forward in the plane.

Or just use retractable belts just as in cars.

Problems are ment to be solved :)

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Yes,
Younger jumpers need to be reminded of the Perris crash, the Hinckley crash and the Pitt Meadows crash.
Strange how young jumpers at Pitt Meadows never heard of the King Air crash even though the wreckage is still laying within sight of the loading area.

On a more cheerful note: yesterday we jumped from an A-Star helicopter at Pitt. We flew with all the doors removed. The pilot was strict about weight and balance and seat-belts. Old skydivers grumbled while younger jumpers devoted their attention to learning the finer points of seat-belt usage. It helped that all the original seats were still installed.

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kimemerson

For reference for anyone who does not know about Perris '92.
This is the incident which prompted the FAR on seat-belts and the practice of securing helmets on takeoff.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/23/us/16-die-in-california-crash-of-plane-full-of-sky-divers.html



For clarification, I believe the seat belt FAR already existed when the Perris incident occurred but belts were not used in practice at most DZ's.

FWIW, I believe we will revisit better restraints again someday. Unfortunately it will likely not happen until after another high-profile incident. Let's face it, most aircraft restraint set-ups are not effective.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I have been in jump planes where after everyone grabs a seatbelt one person is left without one. I have also been on jump planes with seatbelts I could not use due to my wingsuit.

I haven't seen anyone flip out in either case. Aside from that people tend to remind each other to wear them.

It should be noted in the one recent crash in the area the most injured person was wearing a seatbelt. Might have been the cause of his injury.

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lyosha

It should be noted in the one recent crash in the area the most injured person was wearing a seatbelt. Might have been the cause of his injury.



I once knew someone who was saved by not having his seatbelt on in a car when he was T-boned. But I would suggest that in general you are safer when you (and everyone else) is fully belted.

Just my $.02
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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chuckakers

***For reference for anyone who does not know about Perris '92.
This is the incident which prompted the FAR on seat-belts and the practice of securing helmets on takeoff.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/23/us/16-die-in-california-crash-of-plane-full-of-sky-divers.html



For clarification, I believe the seat belt FAR already existed when the Perris incident occurred but belts were not used in practice at most DZ's.

FWIW, I believe we will revisit better restraints again someday. Unfortunately it will likely not happen until after another high-profile incident. Let's face it, most aircraft restraint set-ups are not effective.


One remedy would be to use 2 single point seat belts for each jumper. One fore and one aft of each jumper at maybe 45 degrees on the outside wall. Then attached to the jumper at the same point around a harness piece then snugged. One side of the jumper would still move back and forth but one side should remain stationary. Color coding the belt pairs would help to identify pairs. Dual pairs would become difficult near the door. The jumper would need to be away by half a spot.
Life is short ... jump often.

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After the Twin Otter crash in Missouri (?) the FAA issued a report frowning on "single-point" restraints. What they really meant to say was that single-point cargo tie-downs were not strong enough. The FAA was trying to say that if you anchor skydive restraints to cargo rails, you need DOUBLE-STRENGTH CARGO ANCHORS.

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Lukske

our 206 has seatbelts with a hook on it . like a hook of a RSL.
We actually use them now... in the beginning nobody guessed is was possible but is quite easy....



........................

Please post a photograph.
What Minimum Breaking Strength (or Safe Working Limit) are they rated for?

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Svenjohan

"The pilot wears one, but its the only one I've seen installed"
I don't know how it is with other planes in Sweden but in our DZ's Cessna 206 all skydivers counts as cargo and therefore we don't have any seatbelts



.......................................................................

"Cargo" was a relevant term when referring to the worn-out planes we jumped from during the 1970s. Those Beech 18s and DC-3s were built during World War 2 and flown hard by young pilots. Then they were refurbished for second careers as airliners. When the paint got too scratched for hauling passengers, their interiors were stripped to haul cargo. When the de-iced boots rotted out, they were stripped of blind-flying instruments to haul skydivers. After being over-loaded and abused by skydivers, the lucky airplanes got pushed into the weeds and were stripped of their few remaining airworthy parts. Back during the war, no one expected those airplanes to last 60
years.
Unlucky airplanes crashed after their tired radial engines failed. As we wore out the last military-surplus radial engines DC-3s and Beech 18 quietly retired from hauling skydivers.
So calling skydivers was "self-serving propaganda" back during the 1970s. .... back when sex was safe and skydiving was dangerous. Times have changed.
Modern skydivers demand reliable airplanes ... maintained to the same standards as airliners .... and expect seat-belts maintained to the same standards as airliners.

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