Front mounted containers!?

[neoocm 0]

Hello, I am new to skydiving, and have been reading a lot about it but haven't jumped yet. What I've read is the Dan Poynter's skydiving handbook which is great and some articles and fatalities DB here at dropzone.com which btw it's an amazing site!

The question that concerns me has to do with front mounted containers. Why are back containers used instead of front containers?
I think some of the fatalities could have been prevented using a front container. The upsides that I (think I) see are these:

1) If you pull and doesnt open, you can solve it with your hands in a blink.
2) You could closely monitor the opening sequence and act upon any deployment problem
3) Gives you more stability because of the increased arch and weight distribution (bellyflying)
4) You may prevent a double opening

It just seems illogical to me to BE JUST THERE and can't do anything to open up the damn parachute in case of malfunction. It's kinda dumb, but it's still happening.

Thanks in advance to anyone willinghelp me with this newbie question

[IanHarrop 37]

I haven't given this a lot of thought but...

I don't want to have all that stuff going by my face when it comes out of the container. To avoid that with a chest mounted parachute you would have to be face up during opening (back-to-earth). Imagine after tracking away from a formation skydive that before opening you have to roll over and then deploy.

Being one of the old guard that started with a chest mounted reserve and had to use it once, I like the way the gear is set up now.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Hello, I am new to skydiving, and have been reading a lot about it but haven't jumped yet.

Than do your research.

[neoocm 0]

Hehe that's why I was asking

[riggerrob 558]

...
4) You may prevent a double opening"

.....................................................................

No.
As soon as the wind catches fabric, a front-mounted parachute will inflate way faster than you can react.

Besides, one of the biggest problems with chest-mounted reserves was that they were so big and so bulky and their ripcord handles were so easy to snag, that too many jumpers suffered pre-mature deployments when buddies (or door handles, etc.) accidentally pulled their ripcords.

[erdnarob 1]

When you speak about front mounted container I guess you mean the front mounted reserve. I jumped with such an equipement many years ago and it worked fine. I even got my first malfunction with it and this is the only time I could see in details the whole deployment of my reserve, what a beautiful sight! Then came the ALL IN THE BACK which is aerodynamicaly way better and more confortable too. In the meantime, the release system has improved quite a lot. In the front mounted reserve era, you still had 2 separate releases in case of cut away and after pulling the front mounted reserve handle you had to protect those releases with your hands in order to avoid the reserve fabric to get caught by those releases. With such a system, you had to put your legs in front of you to cut away in a sitting position and allow the reserve to deploy properly. With everything in the back in case of cut away you stay upright or you put your legs behind in order to fall on your stomach.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,380]

Problems:

1) You have to be on your back to deploy.
2) Restricts your visibility downwards (which is an important direction for us.)
3) Your odds of losing a glove/altimeter/finger to the opening are much larger.

That being said, it can certainly be done. I have a front mount tersh that I use on occasion, and many people have used front mount reserves.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

With a rig in front, there would be no room for female jumpers to sit in your lap when moving around to make "tandem room" in an Otter.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[skybytch 259]

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With a rig in front, there would be no room for female jumpers to sit in your lap when moving around to make "tandem room" in an Otter.

With something mounted on the front there would be no tandems.

And where would this sport be without tandems?

[SethInMI 145]

You could still do tandems. Strap them on back-to-back and the TI could back-fly the whole way down!

Seriously, it would be cool to deploy a front-mount while back flying and watch the opening sequence. Watch out for that riser slap though.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[lraywild 0]

Has anyone ever tried using the small round reserve chutes that paragliders use? Maybe as a second reserve. I see not wanting one as a primary reserve, but they would appear to be handy as a secondary reserve. They seem to take tangles very well, much better than rectangle canopy reserves. If you are in a wrapped situation it would be nice to be able to throw one of those out. Looking at videos it looks like they still hold good air when wrapped. Just curious.

[billvon 2,380]

>Has anyone ever tried using the small round reserve chutes that paragliders use?

I've got one. I would not expect it to hold together during a terminal (or even relatively fast) deployment. However, I know one or two CRW people who have used chest mounted (skydiving) 22' reserves as tertiaries. I don't know of anyone being saved by one though.

[humanflite 0]

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Has anyone ever tried using the small round reserve chutes that paragliders use? Maybe as a second reserve. I see not wanting one as a primary reserve, but they would appear to be handy as a secondary reserve. They seem to take tangles very well, much better than rectangle canopy reserves. If you are in a wrapped situation it would be nice to be able to throw one of those out. Looking at videos it looks like they still hold good air when wrapped. Just curious.

it is mainly CReW guys who occasionally use a tertiary .. based on personal preference.

There are upsides and downsides to using a tertiary I would imagine.
-An upside is its a '3rd chance'
and the downsides are:
-If you need to go to a tertiary you are already having a very very very bad day
-It adds a lot more weight and clutter to the individuals front...where the reserve and cutaway pads/handles are normally located for the back mounted container.


Having said that, if I ever got into CReW in the future I would strongly consider using a tertiary for more risky stuff.

[likestojump 3]

let's not forget that at this time there's no mass produced chest container that can legally have a square in it. Not too many of us are willing to have a round reserve all the time :)

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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1) If you pull and doesnt open, you can solve it with your hands in a blink.
2) You could closely monitor the opening sequence and act upon any deployment problem
3) Gives you more stability because of the increased arch and weight distribution (bellyflying)
4) You may prevent a double opening

I'm happy that you are thinking about these things and asking questions... I actually wish there were more people like you. Here are some answers.

1) You might be able to solve the problem... kind of depends on what problem it is. but as billvon said, you're also more likley to CREATE a problem by getting yourself in the way of the opening.

2) Except for immediate container opening problems as in 1 above, you can monitor the entire opening sequence in a back-mounted container, and fix many problems. a front-mount would not help

3) While increased stability is intuitive, you are actually incorrect. Stuff in front of you only serves to make the air less clean, and actually makes stability and maneuvering more difficult. Also, sit-fly and head-down wouldn't work so well.

4) I actually don't see how you would prevent a two-canopy out situation... most 2-outs are caused by a low main pull followed by an AAD fire that activates the reserve. Front mount would be irrelevant.

Downsides:

- As Billvon said, you're on your back during deployment and can't see the ground... that's bad shit!

- A very hard opening on a front-mount can really bend your body in a bad way... worse than on a piggyback.

- Your hands (and possibly other people's hands) are more likley to be in places where handles and flaps are... could lead to premature deployment.

- A premature deployment while on your belly means a face full of canopy and possible fatality due to being wrapped in your own canopy.

- The container being exposed to the wind constantly increases the odds of a premature deployment, even with today's freefly-friendly designs.

Since you are new, you may or may not realize that in the past (70's and before) a back-mounted main and front-mounted reserve was the standard, largely due to 1) the sheer bulk of parachutes at the time and 2) the fact that technology had not yet deveoped to the point where container opening reliability was high enough to have the reserve container on your back. Basically, your first point, that you could solve an opening problem with your hands, was a real concern in the past... the first dual back mounted or "piggyback" containers resulted in quite a few fatalities due to a reserve containers failing to open when activated. Today, this is incredibly rare.

As parachute bulk decreased and technology got smarter, all rigs went to the back, and the sport is much, much safer for it. As pointed out, front mounts are occasionally used for tertiary reserves for intentional cutaways and a few other specialized purposes. I have also seen a tertiary container with all 3 canopies mounted on the back!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[popsjumper 2]

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If you are in a wrapped situation it would be nice to be able to throw one of those out. Looking at videos it looks like they still hold good air when wrapped. Just curious.

You may want to research the difference between a wrap and an entanglement.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[neoocm 0]

This issue of the 2 parachutes not opening and not beign able to solve it was one of my big concerns, and now has been cleared. Thank you so much for your answers guys! now it makes sense to me.

[crustySCSA69 0]

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With something mounted on the front there would be no tandems.

And where would this sport be without tandems?

somewhere better ?

[shropshire 0]

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>Has anyone ever tried using the small round reserve chutes that paragliders use?

I've got one. I would not expect it to hold together during a terminal (or even relatively fast) deployment. However, I know one or two CRW people who have used chest mounted (skydiving) 22' reserves as tertiaries. I don't know of anyone being saved by one though.

Correct Bill, they're not designed to withstand terminal opening shock...... If, after a paragliding incident, I have enough time to reach terminal before deploying my reserve, I'm in deep do-dos.

They are designed to open fast.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome