0
dalemeyer

Jump numbers for Coach Ratings?

Recommended Posts

Hi folks...

was just curious to see how many jumps you reckon you should have before going for a coach rating?

i believe that it should be atleast 500+ jumps as that way you have either been in the sport long enough to see what could happen or by then you should be pretty proficient in what you chose to pursue up there...

the reason i ask this is that as far as i know (and feel free to correct me), a minimum of a B-licence is required to get a coach rating... A B-licence requires 75 (preferrably stable)free fall descents and obviously some good landings by then (hopefully). I dont think that ANY person would know enough about what could or what does happen in certain situations... especially after only 75 jumps.

i have just over 200 descents now and still think that i have TONS to learn before i am able to try and teach someone else.

Advice from someone with 500+ jumps means much more than from someone with 150...!

This is obviously just my opinion but i am a little curious as to what others think.



to me, theory is great, but not nearly as good as experience.
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow.. seems pretty steep. What would be your recommendations to a full instructor rating? :)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B license is 50 jumps, and an AFF is only a C license, 250 jumps, right? If so, what do you suggest for an AFF instructor? What about a tandem instructor? A coach is only jumping with a student to give them feedback, not to instruct them in the first place. I have jumped with very low timers and given them small bits of advice before, that they have said was helpful, and I certainly don't think I am anywhere near being in a position to instruct anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Current eligibilty for USPA AFF-I

a. reached the age of 18 years
b. holds or has held any USPA instructional
rating
c. earned a USPA C license or the FAI equivalent
d. logged six hours of freefall time


6 hours of freefall time will typically take AT LEAST 360 jumps.

Of more interest is the the current eligibilty requirements for USPA SL/IAD INSTRUCTOR are far lower:

a. reached the age of 18 years
b. holds or has held any USPA instructional rating
c. earned a USPA C license or the FAI equivalent and
made at least 200 jumps

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

B license is 50 jumps, and an AFF is only a C license, 250 jumps, right?
....
A coach is only jumping with a student to give them feedback, not to instruct them in the first place.



The OP is in Australia. I don't know what requirements apply there, but I'm pretty sure it's not USPA.

Ahhhh...Coaches indeed DO teach!

While they may not have the experience or time in sport to teach advanced knowledge and skills, they should be able to teach the basics. Since we don't live in a perfect world, there are good Coaches and bad Coaches out there. Teaching quality is all over the spectrum.

I'm comfortable with the 100-jump minimum - as long as the Coach doesn't let his ego get away from him and stays within the boundaries of what he really does know.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


6 hours of freefall time will typically take AT LEAST 360 jumps.



Actually, one could easily achieve 6 hours in a wingsuit, in less than 300 jumps. But, they likely won't be able to pass the AFF course. Having spent quite a bit of time observing various AFF courses, one factor that is *very* clear; if you haven't spent the majority of your early jumps on your belly, you won't pass. I've seen several freeflyers unable to successfully pass the course, even though they're terrific in a sit or head down.

I'm a believer in the 100 minimum, but IMO candidates should consider waiting til at around double that number.

IMO, the value in the Coach rating is less about flying skills and more about teaching skills and learning how to stack blocks, communication, learning to properly brief/debrief, and set the first foot forward to an Instructor rating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the 100 jump minimum. I only have 94 jumps but I do have the knowledge to jump with someone with lower numbers and maybe teach them what I have learned or at least point them in the right direction. I have jumped with a few people that I feel like they took something with them after the jump. I also have been asked things before that were better off for someone else to teach ( so I pointed them in that direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With your background in exercise physiology, you probably understand the coaching process much better than most 100 jump wonders.

While 100 jumps may be the minimum to earn a Coach One rating in Canada, most candidates have more jumps than that before starting the course. Pre-levels should also be considered when you consider what skills the new coach is expected to pass on to recreational skydivers.
For example, Canadian Coach One just help PFF graduates complete the solo skills (back-loops, barrel-rolls, packing, spotting, etc.) required for an A Certificate.
Freefall formation skills are taught by Coach Two.
Coach Two is also a pre-level to becoming a Progressive Freefall Instructor.
Canadian Coach Three focus on competition.

As for tandems ... all manufacturers require a minimum of 500 solo jumps before starting tandem instructor training and several countries require a minimum of 1,000 solo jumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm fine with the 100 jump minimum. Jump numbers don't mean that much anyway ... e.g. how many of the jumps are hop 'n pops or solo freefly? Pretty worthless experience when it comes to teaching group freefall skills. Going through the coach course at least provides a basic understanding and evaluation of teaching skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't much care about time in sport, number of jumps, etc, for ANY rating

I think the key is level of skills (demonstrated), and ability to teach.

So that means any rating can't just be a rubber stamp. You have to prove/earn it through direct demonstration or the evaluator has to have direct knowledge of the candidate's abilities in both areas.

I think the Coach rating has a ways to go, but a blanket set of arbitrary minimums seems silly for such a minor duty. I know some jumpers with a 100 jumps that could do very well and other jumpers with 1000's that I wouldn't let near a friend in the sky.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't much care about time in sport, number of jumps, etc, for ANY rating

I think the key is level of skills (demonstrated), and ability to teach.

.



I'd have to agree. As a low timer, I learn from someone with every jump. I've gotten great pointers from jumps with people who had not many more jumps than me. I've also seen jumpers with much higher jump numbers who were all over the place.

As everyone knows, people just don't progress at the same rate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you don't mind I will correct you on some things. 1st To get your B you only need 50 jumps. To get a coach rating you need 100 jumps.

This subject has been talked to death on here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=Jump%20numbers%20to%20get%20coach%20rating&sb=score&mh=25

Back in the day all you needed was 100 jumps to be a Jump master. and 200 jumps for you D.


The sole responsibility for a coach is to supervise free fall. They are under the direct supervision of a AFFI. Not to say that you dont need to know who to teach Basic free fall skills

I do think they should raise the rating to 200 jumps min. I think the problem lies in the smaller Dz's they would not be able to accommodate the student so easily.
Just my two cents.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>I think the key is level of skills (demonstrated), and ability to teach.

I think that's a good requirement too, but I also think that experience counts. There are things that experience teaches you that tests cannot evaluate - and that you cannot pass on if you don't know about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I think the key is level of skills (demonstrated), and ability to teach.



I agree. The coach rating shows a demonstrated ability to work primarily with NEW STUDENTS who don't yet have an "A" license but have successfully graduated from a program like AFF or static line progression. IMO it is a great program because while the skill set doesn't have to be huge to help new students learning the sport the rating does show a level of competence. Most coaches can certainly help teach new skydivers how to be better skydivers.

I also like that the coach rating does help set a precedent on who can and who can't jump with new students for skydivers with less than a "D" license.

The 100 jump minimum seems fine as long as the coaches can pass the standards of safety and competency in the course
Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
perhaps 200 jumps for a coach rating and 500 for instructor/tandem?

i got my licence in South Africa, so if there are any Saffas reading this, correct me if im wrong but for us it is 75 stable freefall descents for a B-licence...

i would personally prefer someone with experience teaching me.

In saying that, i would definitely not frown upon any advice given. im always open to new advice and ideas...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>that experience counts



time in/number of jumps does not equal good experience. much of the time it equals bad experience repeated constantly over years - it's just too arbitrary and doesn't consider the individual at all

"experience" is just too subjective - I'd rather we just did a better job vetting out candidates based on direct contact and knowledge of them and their skills. You can't do that with a weekend cert course and a check to USPA. If the evaluator for any rating knows the individual directly, and/or goes around his DZ and asks about the character of the candidate etc, then that's a good process I'd think to substitue for some 'experience' limit.

How can you take a meat hauler with 5000 jumps (4900 of which are tandems) and say they are a better candidate than a guy with a tunnel instructor rating, a few canopy courses under his belt, a teaching degree, but only a couple hundred jumps.

How can say a guy with 2000 jumpers over 20 years is a better candidate than the guy with 500 jumps in one year?

it's nuts

I say you assess the individual, but add in things that most people incorrectly attribute to 'experience'. Instead of generalizations, explicitly list those things and see if the guy really has it regardless of time in sport or number of jumps.

I guess in short, I disagree with your ditch statement "There are things that experience teaches you that tests cannot evaluate" - list those things, and FIND a way to evaluate it. Else it's not pertinent.

If you think it's important that an instructor has handled a few malfunctions, that's explicit. If you care that he knows how to pack a diaper - it's silly, but that's explicit. If you care that he's landed at different altitudes or exited different aircraft - that's explicit.

if you care they have a minimum of 1000 jumps - what does that tell you directly - nothing - you are now inferring from that things you can ask directly. makes no sense.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>time in/number of jumps does not equal good experience.

Well, time in/number of jumps does not _necessarily_ indicate good experience. However, the converse is true - lack of time/experience guarantees you will not have good experience.

>How can you take a meat hauler with 5000 jumps (4900 of which are tandems)
>and say they are a better candidate than a guy with a tunnel instructor rating, a
>few canopy courses under his belt, a teaching degree, but only a couple hundred
>jumps.

He's not.

At the same time, you can't take someone with 26 jumps (all on their belly) and lots and lots and lots of tunnel time and expect that they can competently teach anything about aircraft safety, spotting and exits. He's not ready either.

That's why you need both experience and demonstrated competence. Does having both guarantee the guy will be a stellar coach? No, but he's more likely to be than either of the above examples.

>I guess in short, I disagree with your ditch statement "There are things
>that experience teaches you that tests cannot evaluate" - list those things, and
>FIND a way to evaluate it.

Oh, you could do it. Make the coach course three weeks long and have it at Arizona (to evaluate their skills dealing with traffic at larger DZ's) and a small DZ in Florida (to evaluate their skills spotting air traffic, dealing with weather and spotting loads.) Have them make 30-40 jumps to evaluate their skills at aircraft safety, exit planning, exit separation and load planning, flying exits, dealing with troublesome pilots and difficult freeflyers who want to get out first. Tempt them with alcohol in the middle of the day. Plant some people with misrouted chest straps on the load. Fake an engine out. Basically compress a year or so of skydiving into a few weeks.

But that doesn't seem that practical to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>At the same time, you can't take someone with 26 jumps (all on their belly) and lots and lots and lots of tunnel time and expect that they can competently teach anything about aircraft safety, spotting and exits. He's not ready either



you assume he's not ready because of the 26 number - and assume the opposite with some guy with 3000 jumps?

I might quiz them both on aircraft safety, spotting and exits, or observe them on the same, or have them review those things, talk to the DZO and see who's got the better history on that. Then I'd KNOW if either was ready.

who's got the facts, who's guessing?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Have them make 30-40 jumps to evaluate their skills at aircraft safety, exit planning, exit separation and load planning, flying exits, dealing with troublesome pilots and difficult freeflyers who want to get out first. Tempt them with alcohol in the middle of the day. Plant some people with misrouted chest straps on the load. Fake an engine out. Basically compress a year or so of skydiving into a few weeks.



again - do assume someone with more than 501 (whatever) jumps has handled all these things and handled them correctly? and what about the guy with 500 jumps?


I know people with 1000's of jumps that get each of those items wrong every time. Why do they get a free pass from you?

aircraft safety - quiz and observation
exit planning - verbal quiz on scenarios and concept, observation
exit separation and load planning - ditto
flying exits - check out dives
dealing with troublesome pilots - what does jump numbers have to do with this?
difficult freeflyers who want to get out first - quiz on exit separation and load planning, observation of people skills or get references on same
Tempt them with alcohol in the middle of the day. Plant some people with misrouted chest straps - check out dive (see it in all our coach courses here)
Fake an engine out - make it a prereq if you think it's pertinent - I've been in one - or quiz them

time in sport does not equal character or responsibility - that assumption is all I'm seeing here from you

edit: I have old timers here at my company that think they should get paid more because they've been here forever - even though they don't anything more productive than the next guy. Same concept to me. Quoting "experience" is the old guy's lazy way of saying he wants to take shortcuts explain his actions or doesn't want to learn something new.

edit: I'm a bit 'results' oriented - if you can't tell :P . If a rigger gives me a crappy pack job and tells me he's experienced and has done 10000 packs in his career, and a new rigger does a great job - fixes some little things - lets me know about wear on my kill line, etc and only has a few hundred packs - guess who gets my business? Odds are, the experienced guy would do better, but I won't make a decision without real info - at which point, the experience factor goes to zero, and the 'results' column weighs to the max.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>you assume he's not ready because of the 26 number - and assume
>the opposite with some guy with 3000 jumps?

Nope. But it's a good bet that the guy with 3000 jumps has more experience than the guy with 26.

>I might quiz them both on aircraft safety, spotting and exits, or observe
>them on the same, or have them review those things, talk to the DZO
>and see who's got the better history on that.

Woah there pardner! Now you're bringing history into this? Horrors!

Seriously, I agree. But "history" is just another way of saying "experience." You just use a different metric for that experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>Seriously, I agree. But "history" is just another way of saying "experience." You just use a different metric for that experience.



No, by history/experience, I want to know not just the number of jumps and number of years, but details about what the candidate did with all that time.

Quote

it's a good bet that the guy with 3000 jumps has more experience than the guy with 26



agreed, but why "bet" on it. Just test the individual on how good a teacher he'd be. Then it doesn't matter if he has 26 or 3000 jumps. You pass the better flyer and better teacher.

You guys and your "profiling"....:P

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0