Coach Rating.

[The_Don 0]

I see jumpers with 150-200 jumps.
They get their rating & expect the noobs to pay.

That's not the way it was when I got started, people would just say, lets jump!

Me & you, next load!

Why did you get the rating & how do you use it?

Thoughts?

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

The options offered are incomplete. Some coaches get both a free slot and $ for each coached jump.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[mnskydiver688 0]

Should AFF instructors get paid? Should S/L instructors get paid?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[The_Don 0]

Instructor does not equal coach.

And vise versa.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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Why did you get the rating & how do you use it?

I got my rating so that I could jump with new students not yet licensed and help them grow in the sport. I never received money and I never expected to receive money but I did recieve some great intangibles like smiles and contagious enthusiam.

I am now an AFF instructor and I still dont' get paid for students who are off of AFF status and not yet licensed. Of course every instructor at my DZ also jumps with these students for free. We do this because it is important for the sport to grow in a positive way.

Many many many experienced jumpers helped me along the way and none of them expected pay. They just wanted me to succeed and to love the sport. Fortunately because of them I do love this sport and like them I have a similar attitude that I want to pass on as well.

I am not saying that taking money for coaching is bad because a good coach who earns the money and helps beat down the learning curve is a valuable resource.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[Gary73 8]

Depends on what's involved:

If the newbie (whether student or licensed jumper) asks for specific instruction before the jump and a decent debrief afterward, then it's fair for him to cover the Coach's slot. First of all, the Coach invested time and money getting to his level of proficiency, and secondly, the coachee will make more progress on a properly conducted coached jump than on two or three or maybe even ten solo or regular fun jumps. Another aspect of it is that doing a coached jump often consists of just laying there as a stable base and watching the newbie flail and zoom by. Not the funnest use of $20 to $25.

But if it's just an ordinary fun jump with no instruction and just a casual debrief walking back to the hangar, then the experienced jumper should cover his own slot and pay it forward.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[gearless_chris 1]

I've always jumped at 182 dz's, I got my coach rating to help the dz's out. My plan was to get my static line and IAD ratings. It would be handy to be able to put out a student on the way up to do a tandem video. The dropzone I got my coach rating at offered static line videos (when available). Most of the instructors didn't do video, so it would've helped them a lot for me to get my instructor rating. I would be happy to jump with students just to do it, but it's not quite fair if the dz still charges the student the same price as they would if they were paying my slot and $5. I'm happy getting my slot covered for actual coach jumps, but for new graduates I'll jump with them just for fun.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

If the newbie (whether student or licensed jumper) asks for specific instruction before the jump and a decent debrief afterward, then it's fair for him to cover the Coach's slot.

But if it's just an ordinary fun jump with no instruction and just a casual debrief walking back to the hangar, then the experienced jumper should cover his own slot and pay it forward.

I think that the above quote points out something VERY important to this discussion.... NOT ALL COACH JUMPS ARE EQUAL.

I am the product of Skydive University coaching. The time involvement of my coach in each jump was probably at least 90 minutes. The pre-jump briefing was extensive and easily took at least 30 minutes for most jumps. The actual jump took 30-40 minutes if you include the pre-boarding gear check and waiting to board. There was an extensive debrief of every jump. To have only paid my coach's slot would have made no sense....they spent A LOT of time with me.

I suspect that there are many other coached jumps that involve FAR less of the coach's time and effort.

Any discussion of how to compensate for coached jumps (if at all) needs to take into account the diversity in the coach's time and effort.

I have said it before, and I will say it again... I got every penny's worth of the money that I paid for coached jumps with my Skydive University coaches. I got plenty of free "coaching" after I got my license too. I remember times after I got my license that up jumpers devoted a 2-way jump to simply helping me improve my skills. They never asked for a slot or a penny. I have tried to pay that forward with newly licensed jumpers who need someone to be a "target" for thier efforts.

My bottom line is that I see a place for both the very structured "formal" coached jump (with compensation), and the more "informal" coached jump which might be for a slot or a beer.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[redramdriver 0]

Couldn't agree wtih you more. Why is it that there is this large percentage of skydivers that feel that a "coached" jump isn't important enough to have a student pay for the coach's jump? All the people that I know who have only ever had a coach's rating gladly jump with almost everyone and anyone who wants to jump. The coach learns something on all these jumps as well. But, the fun jumps are exactly that, fun jumps. We all pay our own slot on those. The jumps that the student needs a coach on for their "A"...hell yes, the student should pay for the slot. We've all heard it over the years that coaches should jump for free with students. I say let all the AFF instructors, S/L instructors/ IAD instructors make all their jumps out of their pocket and your going to definately see a large decline in instructors jumping with students at each and every drop zone. If people think that the coaches' time, money, effort, are all "free", maybe you would be happy paying the coach back for their time and expense that they took to get their rating and keep it.
So, if any "instructors" want to jump at their own expense, without any form of financial gain from their DZO, and pay for all your own slots, your DZO is going to love having your in their back pocket!

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[Hausse 0]

Depends what kind of coach jump I'm doing.

If I am doing one for a licensed student that wants to practice something on his belly, I ask them to pay my slot (simply because I can't afford to pay it myself). There is usually not too much work involved except probably about a 15min. dirt dive and a short debrief at the end plus I pack for myself.

If I am doing on for the school, then I get slot + $20. There is generally quite some work involved with about a 30 min. brief plus about a 20 min debrief. On top of that if I coach for the school, I generally use packers so that more students can get into the air. And lastly, the students pay the full price of a coach jump no matter if I'm trying to pay it forward so the only difference then is that the owner gets the $20 that I should have gotten and quite frankly, I need them more then he does

[billvon 2,379]

>Instructor does not equal coach.

True! When I got my first JM rating I had less experience than coaches have now. Yet I got paid for doing much less than what coaches do nowadays. Strange but true.

[wishnstar611 0]

We get paid to do coach jumps at my dz but that's not the reason I decided to be a coach. I like working with students and the feeling that someone trusts and looks up to you. I had an awesome coach who has been jumping for over 50 years and I wanted to spread the knowledge I learned from him to future skydivers....Plus, what can beat the feeling of excitment a student has when they pass a level they had been struggling with?

[Hausse 0]

Quote

We get paid to do coach jumps at my dz but that's not the reason I decided to be a coach. I like working with students and the feeling that someone trusts and looks up to you. I had an awesome coach who has been jumping for over 50 years and I wanted to spread the knowledge I learned from him to future skydivers....Plus, what can beat the feeling of excitment a student has when they pass a level they had been struggling with?

A Blow Job?

[mnskydiver688 0]

So why is a coach rating considered an instructional rating? And why at the coach course do they go over instructional techniques? Why are coaches allowed to teach pre-licensed jumpers?

Edit: If I am going to do ground training, jump, and an involved de-brief then I think I should be compensated. However, if they just want to go jump to get out in the air and screw around then I won't ask for anything and I all do is make sure the student stays safe and maybe just maybe still learns something even when they screw around.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[SSHusky 0]

I got my coach rating at 100 jumps. I passed all the jumps and teaching without a problem. Looking back at it, I think I should have waited to get my rating, or at least coach people. I was inexperienced and I looked at each coach jump, to challenge me in the sky. How quickly can I respond to the student's movement? Can I see why they are spinning/ sliding?
Yes, when I coached, I got 10 dollard plus slot. I was a struggling college student and I needed every penny to keep eating everyday (I had 2 jobs, as well as school full time and this coaching side job). I became a coach for the challenge as well as the money. Some students just need a person to fall straight down so that they can practice docking, tracking etc.
I don't see anything wrong with being a coach and charging money. I paid for coaches when I was a student, all the way up to jump 25.

[pilotdave 0]

Sounds to me like some people are talking about coaching under the USPA ISP and some are talking about post-A-license coaching. For student jumps, the coach spends a lot of time with each student and helps them finish the requirements for their license. If they're meeting the standards they should be, and spending the amount of time necessary, they should be getting paid something. My DZ pays slot plus $5. I personally think $20 is way too much. And a couple people have mentioned that if they do it for free, the DZ pockets the cash. My DZ makes no profit on coach jumps other than 2 slots worth and gear rental. If I want to do it for free, I ask the DZ to manifest us as 2 fun jumpers, plus a gear rental, and I don't get my $5. The DZ gets paid the same, so they don't care.

As far as post-A-license coaching, you better have some really special skills if you're charging. That's where we can pay it forward. But that's got nothing to do with a coach rating.

Dave

[Bill_K 0]

Quote

I see jumpers with 150-200 jumps.
They get their rating & expect the noobs to pay.

That's not the way it was when I got started, people would just say, lets jump!

Me & you, next load!

Why did you get the rating & how do you use it?

Thoughts?

Don,

I don't have my official rating yet, but I've done a few 'coach' type jumps and I never expect anybody to pay me anything. When I was very new (I still count myself as being new) there were so many people that jumped with me for nothing; they taught me huge amounts and I try to pay it forward when ever I can now as a result. Even if/when I get my rating I won't charge I don't think. I look at it as a stepping stone toward my AFFI someday. If people are willing to wait, I'm even known to throw the video and pictures up so that they can see them. The smiles and enjoyment that they get mean the world to me.

Just my newbie .02 on it.
BK

PS. missed you guys this weekend, car pooled up north...

[Bill_K 0]

Quote

Should AFF instructors get paid? Should S/L instructors get paid?

Yes

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I'm debating getting mine this month. I'm not going to charge anyone a dime to jump with me... That would be a serious rip off!

[mnskydiver688 0]

Take the rating seriously. Take the idea and execution of instruction seriously. Don't short change the students. Even if you don't charge your student for a student (pre-license) jump, be a knowledge base, know when to pass the question off to more knowledgeable jumpers and be confident in your own ability to teach them what they need to know.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[wishnstar611 0]

Quote

Quote

We get paid to do coach jumps at my dz but that's not the reason I decided to be a coach. I like working with students and the feeling that someone trusts and looks up to you. I had an awesome coach who has been jumping for over 50 years and I wanted to spread the knowledge I learned from him to future skydivers....Plus, what can beat the feeling of excitment a student has when they pass a level they had been struggling with?

A Blow Job?

Ha I should have known that was coming!

[DanG 1]

Quote

I'm debating getting mine this month. I'm not going to charge anyone a dime to jump with me... That would be a serious rip off!

Then you shouldn't be a Coach.

If you can't add value to a student's jump (whether or not you accept money from them) then you aren't ready.

- Dan G

[jimmytavino 16]

technically,,, I've been doing coach jumps for decades........ AND paid my own slot...

i often used the "lay a base,,, wait for the dock,, back off and down,,, relay the base, wait for the dock, etc etc, " technique,, years and years ago...

then after the 'rating" came out.. It was determined that sudddenly I was NO LONGER capable of doing what I had been doing successfully,,, for a long long time.... since i didn't HAVE that rating....

so... i attended a coach course, passed it successfully, earned the rating,,,, as did 6 or 8 other club members,,

I did a few coach jumps, and put in alll the required pre jump and post jump effort,, BUT had to share the limited coach slots, with others...
Long story short, I only did 7 or 8 coach jumps that first season,, since i was also called upon to shoot video,, which some how seemed to take priority, according to the needs of the manifest staff...

sooooo. according to USPA,,, i had to forfeit my coach rating, because i had not done 10 coach jumps in a year....


so something i WAS qualified for decades ago,( sharing the air with a novice), and something for which I attended the course, passed all the requirements, and earned, was revoked, on a technicallity...

I say nothing about it... BUT i guarantee that there are others who got the rating,, did NOT do 10 coach jumps a year,, especially if they are at a DZ with a dozen or so coaches, and especially if they only do one or two, here and there,,,AND especially if they are at a cessna DZ, where 100 total jumps on a weekend day,, is a LOT....
why have those folks , Not surrendered their ratings??

i KNOW i'm still capable , to help a novice, only USPA says i can't..

How many coaches out there?? have failed to meet the minimums, yet still consider themselves, as "current"..

just wonderin'?????
And as long as they "say" they met the minimums, and as long as they PAY the annual renewal fee,, how DOES Uspa.. know if they have done the dives???

jmy A 3914
D 12122
scr scs nscr
Pops 3935

[Reaperwear 0]

Not all coach jumps are equal and not all coaches are equal. At our DZ coach jumps only refer to jumps with jumpers who are still on student status 5sec. delay or above. The coaches job is to observe and help debrief the student, the coach will spend time with the student before the jump going over the dive plan and as well as a canopy flight plan. After the jump the coach will debrief the student and work with the student on improvements or the next level. While they are on student status the coaches slot is covered plus $5 to cover packing. After someone has graduated we try to keep them paired with coaches or instructors but our slots are not covered. These jumps are debriefed as through as needed, this is when we pay it forward. IMHO the student has paid a lot of money to get to this point and has showed they are dedicated to the sport and need us to show that we are here for them even when not being paid.

That all being said the coach rating is a relatively easy rating to get and does not really take that much skill or knowledge to get. I have seen coaches with 500 jumps who are not worth a damn and i have seen coaches with 150 jumps who are very detail oriented and do an amazing job. After all teaching the basics is a lot easier to do than to teach the finer points, it takes experience (not just total # of skydives but experience in instruction) to notice the little things that a student is doing to really be effective.

I think we are all coaches to some extent, don't we all let our fellow jumpers know if we saw something they could improve on? I bet we all have people we love to jump with just because they can teach so something.

In summary, I don't have a problem with someone on student status paying my slot (it is in the price of their jump they do not pay me directly) especially since I think I have something to offer them, I would never ask for my slot to be paid for by anyone off student status so many people jumped with me in the beginning and never asked for money and so many still do jump with me that offer me more knowledge.

Blue Skies

I refuse to tiptoe through life, only to arrive safely at death. www.reaperwear.com

[Mikeb 0]

I take my coach rating very seriously. I interview the student and we determine the basis of the coach jump. I breakdown the sequence into 3 parts, the launch, the dive and the canopy. The goal is to work on a least one aspect of each of the 3 parts. I always do a gear check of my student before takeoff and before exit. After the jump we have a debrief, if possible we get video along as well. I keep copies of Skydiver, Parachutist, on other resources and select one article for each of the main parts of the jump that will be appropriate for the skill and needs of the student which I give to the student for their reference and study.
I have only charged when the DZ has pre-sold the coach jump and is short of instructors to do the coach jump. I do not want to take work away from the regular instructors at the DZ who depend on fees for their living.
I think I give better than average service to my students and will accept but not require my slot to be paid.
I enjoy sharing this great hobby with the new jumpers and get satisfaction when I know they have benefited from my coaching.