hackish 8 #1 October 12, 2007 I've been reading the FAA Parachute Rigger Manual and have found a few significant typos. Someone on here had given me a link and I downloaded it a month or more ago. I tried to google it up but the only reference I found said to see your local FAA office. Not practical for me up in the frozen northland. Does anyone have an idea of whom to contact with a list of errors? This manual is a really good reference and I feel the errors should be corrected or clarified (if that's what they really meant). -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #2 October 12, 2007 You're a regular know it all, im sure you'll find a way.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #3 October 12, 2007 Post the errors here or PM me. If you have a proposed change, include it. I'll be seeing the author next week. Thanks, Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #4 October 12, 2007 QuoteYou're a regular know it all, im sure you'll find a way. So what you're suggesting is that if I've found an error that is indeed a typo you'll take back your comments. I mean a know-it all is just someone who thinks they know it all but really doesn't. So if that is the case then I must be wrong with what I've found. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #5 October 12, 2007 If you've got 'em, post 'em. Or at least give us a gist of the type of thing to watch for. It's a big book so errors are possible. I'm curious how obvious the errors are. If they are obvious to even a newer skydiver, then perhaps it isn't that bad a problem. The nature of the errors may still say something about whether other ones lay undiscovered, and more likely to trip up a new or experienced rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #6 October 12, 2007 QuoteI've been reading the FAA Parachute Rigger Manual and have found a few significant typos. Someone on here had given me a link and I downloaded it a month or more ago. I tried to google it up but the only reference I found said to see your local FAA office. Not practical for me up in the frozen northland. Does anyone have an idea of whom to contact with a list of errors? This manual is a really good reference and I feel the errors should be corrected or clarified (if that's what they really meant). -Michael Wow. You're a busy dude!! Editing the FAA rigger's manual (pretty cool you have that kind of an eye for detail). Wish my employees were motivated like you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #7 October 12, 2007 QuotePost the errors here or PM me. If you have a proposed change, include it. I'll be seeing the author next week. Pass along my thanks to the author - it's very well written and obviously a lot of time was spent being thorough. I should have made notes while reading the .pdf. Here are two points that came to mind. I'm using the 2005 revision. Page 5-7 under Pilot Chute and Bridle "Most current springs have between 20-30 pounds of tension, but some run as high as 40-45 pounds. Too strong a string is rarely an issue, but too weak often is a problem." I believe it should read "Too strong a spring is rarely an issue..." The second point I had is open to technical discussion. My knowledge of parachute links is minimal but I do have some experience in metallurgy, fasteners and machining. Page 5-9 under heading #4 "Most riggers do not possess a force gauge to measure this, so they use the quarter turn guide. After tightening the links, a "telltale" should be applied to the barrel. [Figure 5-15] A telltale is a marker, usually nail polish, that provides a breakable seal to show if the barrel has moved. If the seal is broken the rigger knows that link may be loose. In doing a repack, if the telltale is intact, the rigger should not loosen the link and retighten it because the continual tightening can strip the threads, causing the link to fail. I don't disagree with the advice to not touch a marked link but unless it is a torque to yield fastener repeated loosening and retightening should not strip the threads and cause the link to fail unless it is being overtorqued. Over time the threads do wear and will become more polished which in theory could eventually lead to yielding the fastener but I think wear should be the only reason cited. Finally, a lubricated fastener will have a different amount of tension than a dry one so it may be worthwhile to mention that the threads should be checked and perhaps cleaned with alcohol according to the manufacturer's recommendations. I don't know how the aviation industry works so someone will have to apply their expertise to this. In the engines I build, not adding moly lube to a fastener can easily make the difference between a reliable engine and one that suffers from a connecting rod through the block. I'll let the experts pick this apart and decide. I'll also make notes as I continue to read it. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #8 October 12, 2007 Quote I believe it should read "Too string a spring is rarely an issue..." umm I do believe you have a typo in your typo point out. And I do believe you have way too much time on your hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #9 October 12, 2007 QuoteWow. You're a busy dude!! Editing the FAA rigger's manual (pretty cool you have that kind of an eye for detail). I don't half-ass anything I do and I'm pretty anal. Decide for yourself if that's a good attribute or not. QuoteWriting a book on psychology of skydiving Hell no! Not a book, a 1-2 page article. I have no time, interest or formal training to write a book. QuoteDeveloping an altimeter I'd rather not talk about this one as this winter I should be a patent application on something I've dreamed up. Once that's done I may have a black box for you to try out :P QuoteSussing out a wingsuit mode for an AAD Practicing hook n' swoops Wingsuit mode is merely an idea - free for any AAD manufacturer to construct. Took maybe an hour of time. Practise hook n' swoops? Hell no! Having read the stats I don't think I am interested in low hook turns. I'm not at that point yet! QuoteDesigning a parachute Again, no! Building a scale model - I thought it would be neat to make a toy that was a scale of a real ram-air canopy but ultimately not viable because it's too hard to make QuoteBuilding video cameras with embedded alti info Already done but untested. No time. QuoteTesting still camera lenses at 30fps or 'whatever' Yes I was a photographer. It is in a photographer's best interest to get the best quality lenses they can. QuoteDesigning a faster opening for Sabre 1 Hardly - reading PD's packing instructions and posting about them because nobody I'd talked to seemed to know. QuoteBusting big mouth's I'm willing to bet you have a tracker to read every post I put up and bust my ass the second I spel something wrong. Someone even said you have a hate on for me :) QuoteGetting your "A" Ran out of time this year - weather not being cooperative. Unless I can magically get a jump and make 3 good docks but that's going to take some doing. QuoteYou're going to be one scary-awesome skydiver one day. When do you find time to skydive? Do you ever see your wife? Scary skydiver or burned out one. I was the same with cars once upon a time. Started a business modifying them now I barely enjoy playing with or driving my own :( If anyone here has done a PhD thesis they understand how we're both very busy... Besides, doing mindless tasks like welding intercoolers or porting cylinder heads gives me time to think... -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #10 October 12, 2007 Quote umm I do believe you have a typo in your typo point out. And I do believe you have way too much time on your hands. Haha, yep, thanks... fixed. "Please fix this typo with my own carefully crafted typo!" -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybeergodd 0 #11 October 12, 2007 I think your way over reading or over complicating the second issue on the link.....The links used must be stamped with Maillon Rapide....those are the approved metal links for reserves...and all the manual is stating is after assembly, once the links are properly torqued then the should be mark with some type of seal(I and most people use a drop of red nail polish). That way at next repack if the seal is not broken then you know the links are tightened properly. This just prevents someone from loosening them and retightening them every repack. Over torqueing those links can be a problem and the sealing hopefully with prevent that......your idea just over engineers that one step, I understand thats an area of epertise you have but if everyone who had an area of expertise I.E fabric, aerodynamics,ect...wanted their technical picky expertise spelled out then we would end up with packing novels instead of packing manuals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #12 October 12, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow. You're a busy dude!! Editing the FAA rigger's manual (pretty cool you have that kind of an eye for detail). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't half-ass anything I do and I'm pretty anal. Decide for yourself if that's a good attribute or not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Writing a book on psychology of skydiving -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hell no! Not a book, a 1-2 page article. I have no time, interest or formal training to write a book. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Developing an altimeter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd rather not talk about this one as this winter I should be a patent application on something I've dreamed up. Once that's done I may have a black box for you to try out :P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sussing out a wingsuit mode for an AAD Practicing hook n' swoops -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wingsuit mode is merely an idea - free for any AAD manufacturer to construct. Took maybe an hour of time. Practise hook n' swoops? Hell no! Having read the stats I don't think I am interested in low hook turns. I'm not at that point yet! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Designing a parachute -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, no! Building a scale model - I thought it would be neat to make a toy that was a scale of a real ram-air canopy but ultimately not viable because it's too hard to make -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Building video cameras with embedded alti info -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Already done but untested. No time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Testing still camera lenses at 30fps or 'whatever' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes I was a photographer. It is in a photographer's best interest to get the best quality lenses they can. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Designing a faster opening for Sabre 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardly - reading PD's packing instructions and posting about them because nobody I'd talked to seemed to know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Busting big mouth's -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm willing to bet you have a tracker to read every post I put up and bust my ass the second I spel something wrong. Someone even said you have a hate on for me :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Getting your "A" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ran out of time this year - weather not being cooperative. Unless I can magically get a jump and make 3 good docks but that's going to take some doing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're going to be one scary-awesome skydiver one day. When do you find time to skydive? Do you ever see your wife? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scary skydiver or burned out one. I was the same with cars once upon a time. Started a business modifying them now I barely enjoy playing with or driving my own :( If anyone here has done a PhD thesis they understand how we're both very busy... Besides, doing mindless tasks like welding intercoolers or porting cylinder heads gives me time to think... -Michael Am I missing something or did this come out of nowhere? As for the topic of this thread. I am not sure about how anyone else feels but a typo is hardly anything worth complaining about. As long as the information is correct the rest is irrelevant. Read the Poynter Manuals you will find a typo here and there but it isn't anything to cry about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #13 October 12, 2007 Quote Am I missing something or did this come out of nowhere? As for the topic of this thread. I am not sure about how anyone else feels but a typo is hardly anything worth complaining about. As long as the information is correct the rest is irrelevant. Read the Poynter Manuals you will find a typo here and there but it isn't anything to cry about. Nah, didn't come out of nowhere. Michael is responding to my original post which I'd edited after someone pointed out it may be seen as a challenge to what Michael is working on in skydiving, and it wasn't intended that way. Michael must have already been working on his response when I edited the post. Go Michael! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #14 October 12, 2007 Yes, every so often I come upstairs to the computer and reply for 10 minutes waiting for the TIG to cool down. Must have caught DSE before he edited his original post. The points were quoted and replied to in mine anyway... As for skybeergodd, you probably are correct. I threw out all the technical details that came to mind and it could probably be condensed to something to the effect of: When tightening the links it is important to ensure the threads are free of oil or contaminants and that they are not tightened beyond the manufacturer's specification. If the telltale marks have not been disturbed do not loosen and retighten the links as it may lead to premature wear and failure. If using the above someone would have to ensure the manufacturer calls for non-lubricated threads - which I did not. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steelyeye 0 #15 October 12, 2007 http://www.usapr.com/ "Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #16 October 12, 2007 An Error!!?? In an FAA Document!! No way!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 October 12, 2007 The main reason we tighten Maillon Rapide links "finger tight plus a quarter turn" is because few skydivers are bright enough to operate a torque wrench. Also, Maillon Rapide links come from the factory "dry" (read not lubricated) and most skydivers are too lazy to search for lubricants. You are over-thinking the question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #18 October 12, 2007 Quotehttp://www.usapr.com/ Sandy Reid's book is very well-written, concise, and the illustrations are worth the proverbial thousand words. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 October 12, 2007 Dang apprentices keep us on our toes!!!! Pointing out typos &^%$#@! Just the other day, I was reviewing the materials chapter, when an apprentice pointed out a couple of typos. The confusion was over certain materials were "tapes" or "webbings." Then the apprentice (clever lad) pointed out that the PIA SPEC started with "W" for webbing or "T" for tape. Normally the dividing line - between tapes and webbings is 1,000 pounds and 1 inch wide. For example, 1 inch wide Type 4 tape (square weave) is rated at 1,000 pounds. There are a few tapes that are wider, but only 1.5 inch wide Type 4 tape is more than 1,000 pounds (in this case 1,500 pounds). On the other hand, the only webbing - that I can think of - that is less than 1 inch wide and less 1,000 pounds is the Type 1 webbing that is used for line attachment tapes on square reserves. Otherwise, the new FAA Rigging Manual is an excellent textbook, so good that CSPA's Technical Committee is considering making it a mandatory textbook for training Riggers. P.S. The author: Sandy Reid taught me tremendous amounts about rigging when I worked for him in the mid 1990s. Thanks Sandy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #20 October 12, 2007 Thanks to steelyeye I was able to find the contact info for the author and forwarded the details to him so he can make the correct decision. The reason I'd be a stickler on the links is that from the photo they would appear to be a hard link between the riser and parachute thus failure would likely mean someone dying. The difference between dry and lubed threads (molybdenum disulfide as I use) can have as much as a 50% effect on the torque tension transfer. For maximum reliability and service life most fasteners are torqued to 80% of their yield. This is well within the elastic range and most likely to maintain it's torque. I have no idea if that is the case with these but if 30 ft/lbs is 80% yield then adding lubrication may very well cause the yield tension to be reached or exceeded. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #21 October 12, 2007 Hi hackish, Well, I tend to by like you; typos just bug me. And I make far more than my share. Spell-checkers have made us poor typists. This one has always bugged me: QuoteMost current springs have between 20-30 pounds of tension, It is COMPRESSION folks; but most people simply do not know the difference between tension & compression. I don't know of anyone who would pull on a pilot chute to determine it's strength. As to your lubing threads, back when I was just an engineering student working part-time in a test lab I had a project on a test study of torque vs axial load on fasterners with various forms of contaminates, lubes, etc. The results were very informative. And you are very correct in your comments about the torques vs axial loads. Some of the fasteners on my last Porsche had bolts, holding the brake calipers on, that once torqued were never to be used again, you had to replace them with new ones. Just my rambling on . . . . JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #22 October 12, 2007 Crappola, And here's my typo: Quote fasterners JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #23 October 12, 2007 Quote The difference between dry and lubed threads (molybdenum disulfide as I use) can have as much as a 50% effect on the torque tension transfer. For maximum reliability and service life most fasteners are torqued to 80% of their yield. This is well within the elastic range and most likely to maintain it's torque. I have no idea if that is the case with these but if 30 ft/lbs is 80% yield then adding lubrication may very well cause the yield tension to be reached or exceeded. Crap, I'd better take that tube of Moly Disulfide out of my rigging kit. No wonder all my customers have had their links rip apart!"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #24 October 12, 2007 Quote ... and I'm pretty anal. Who Knew? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #25 October 13, 2007 You should realize that Sandy wrote the FAA manual under subcontract. In most cases it contains his methods and opinions. There are other well respected riggers who disagree with some of the items in it. As well as some manufacturers. Some of those comments have been either widely or narrowly distributed or simply voiced to me personally. And of course there are manufacturer' manuals that prohibit procedures shown in the manual. IIRC Sandy includes the appropriate statements referencing the manufacturer's manual as the primary reference. Don't get me wrong. I respect Sandy, but also respect other opinions. This is a valuable document. While a committee writing this would have taken another three decades, it's somewhat unfortunate, IMHO, that a FAA how to manual concerning rigging was written by one person. This document is only published as a FAA publication with no identification of the author. Some things might now be considered "official" by being included in the manual that might have other interpretations, methods, or opinions. I HOPE that FAA inspectors and other realize that in many cases the manual shows one of two or more acceptable methods to do something. My biggest fear is that some FAA field inspector will point to it and say "you have to do it like this!" Hmmm, now I need to go check it for something I need to do.As for typos, get over it. I rarely read a document of any length without some. Check out PD's manual for a link torque requirement as well as Loctite requirement. I don't think anyone mentioned that one danger of continuing to tighten links or common fault with new links is the stop at the end of the threads failing to stop the barrel. Forget the lube issue. As stated they come dry, we use them dry, this isn't rocket science and rarely do link loosen significantly during use. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
