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Riggers Mistakes

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Who is Accountable? The other day I witnessed a cut away that the reserve looked very funny. After the jumper landed I relised that his Rigger forgot to attach one line (the outside right front on an Tempo reserve) to the riser. The jumper was mot injured but the reserve was hard to fly straight and impossable to flair. My question "is this noted in some Rigger lifetime history or something?

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The first question I have to ask was:

do you know how many times this reserve was repacked../??

If it had pasted in the hands of more then one rigger, and/ or if it had been repacked before by either one rigger or another.

quite possible to blame the last packer, but may have to blame others as well. or who was it that moved this reserve to this container...


Was the line that was loose: broken or maybe it was not connected..

Not being connected is sort of hard to belive.. since each repack the reserve should be inspected 100 percent... including lines etc... its easy to see if a line is not attached when packing as all lines should / will be tight.....

Just my two cents here......
Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

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When I pack a Rig- The Previous Rigger's mistakes become my mistakes if I don't find them and correct them.
With that said - This situation does seem kind of funny in the first place. To not have one line attached would be hard to miss - even for a normal jumper packing his main....
Could it have snapped?
=========Shaun ==========


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When I pack a Rig- The Previous Rigger's mistakes become my mistakes if I don't find them and correct them.
With that said - This situation does seem kind of funny in the first place. To not have one line attached would be hard to miss - even for a normal jumper packing his main....
Could it have snapped?

You are soooo correct. Riggers certify gear as airworthy. If the gear is worthy of course. Plenty of rigs get assembled not according to manufacturers instructions. PD reserves are the finest on the market IMO but when one gets assembled the rigger has to finish the loop for the toggles which means setting the toggles at the factory mark on the line. If a rigger cosistently sets the brakes at a other than manufacturers factory mark then it would be 'wrong' right? I have found many rigs with this issue, several from the same riggers. PD i'm sure they did'nt pass the TSO test with an unfinished brake line, I still don't understand why they don't finish the brake line. Could it be that the line that was not connected be missing its bartack?

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Who is Accountable? The other day I witnessed a cut away that the reserve looked very funny. After the jumper landed I relised that his Rigger forgot to attach one line (the outside right front on an Tempo reserve) to the riser. The jumper was mot injured but the reserve was hard to fly straight and impossable to flair. My question "is this noted in some Rigger lifetime history or something?


Is your rig packed and assembled by a human? So what is your next move?

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there is nothing that says you cant check your own reserve. You just cant pack it. Next time you go for a repack, pop it out and check it, then leave it to be packed. And if your still worried, find someone that will let you watch them pack it.

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there is nothing that says you cant check your own reserve. You just cant pack it. Next time you go for a repack, pop it out and check it, then leave it to be packed. And if your still worried, find someone that will let you watch them pack it.

you can pack it under supervision of a properly rated rigger. That's part of how riggers become riggers.

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Who is Accountable? The other day I witnessed a cut away that the reserve looked very funny. After the jumper landed I relised that his Rigger forgot to attach one line (the outside right front on an Tempo reserve) to the riser. The jumper was mot injured but the reserve was hard to fly straight and impossable to flair. My question "is this noted in some Rigger lifetime history or something?

Does this issue make you want to have rigs repacked more often than 120 days or longer than 120 days? Just think, a rigger is human and can make mistakes which you could be jumping. Of course you would rather not have to jump a riggers mistake, but if you were, would you rather jump it for 120 days or 180 days?

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I don't think there's a db of riggers, much less one that includes a list of their 'mistakes'. Riggers pretty much take care of their own; meaning that if there's a 'mistake' that catches another riggers eye then the riggers will have a heart to heart. Depending on the nature of the 'offending' riggers mistake and his/her response, the action may get bumped up to the authorities (read FAA).

Riggers are humans, and you human types tend to make mistakes (I don't include myself in this because my wife swears I'm some sort of f*cking alien; and according to her she's never wrong.) Anyway, I've been in and around the sport since '82 and have only first hand knowledge of 1 rigger being taken to the FAA, and his ticket was pulled for life. :)
Whatever the outcome, I doubt you'll hear about it and it probably won't be advertised unless theres a definative reason (such as s/he has rigs out there that should be grounded).

Relax... the rigging community takes pretty good care of their own.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

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Just to continue Glitch's logic ...

The Parachute Industry Association has a three-step process for dealing with erring riggers.

Most of the time, it never gets beyond the first step: an embarrassing phone call. The vast majority of riggers are conscientious and want to do a good job. Any reports of errors result in them redoubling their inspection efforts.
On the other hand, a couple of erring riggers were on their way out of the business, so I just told them what I saw and quietly let them retire. Most of the time, I do not mention minor errors to customers - no need to get them excited about "gear-fear." If it is a small error, I often fix it for free, or a half-hour's labor.
I only tell the customer - about the error - if it is an expensive repair.

The second step involves more witnesses, more documentation, more photographs, etc.

It is only when it gets to the third step (usually after repeated mistakes, bad attitude, etc.) that the FAA hears about the erring rigger. Frankly, the FAA prefers it that way. The less the FAA hears about offending riggers the better.

Relax ... the rigging community takes care of its own.

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Who is Accountable? The other day I witnessed a cut away that the reserve looked very funny. After the jumper landed I relised that his Rigger forgot to attach one line (the outside right front on an Tempo reserve) to the riser. The jumper was mot injured but the reserve was hard to fly straight and impossable to flair. My question "is this noted in some Rigger lifetime history or something?

Does this issue make you want to have rigs repacked more often than 120 days or longer than 120 days? Just think, a rigger is human and can make mistakes which you could be jumping. Of course you would rather not have to jump a riggers mistake, but if you were, would you rather jump it for 120 days or 180 days?



the answer is: doesn't matter.
More or less repacks does not affect error rate of riggers. if you got a bad reserve repacked, there is the same amount of chance that it would be repacked incorrectly the next time.

MB 3528, RB 1182

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The best thing I can think of is to find a rigger that you're comfortable with. At my DZ (which is very very small) there are at least 3 guys who can pack reserves.

The rigger who has been teaching me to pack (mains) encourages everyone to watch a reserve pack. I am entirely confident with his abilities and you should be too of the person packing your reserve. Even after 20 or so years in the business he packs step by step with the owner's manual open in front of him.

Back to who is accountable? I'd say the rigger not only in a moral sense but probably too in a legal sense. Forgetting an attachment like that probably amounts to negligence.

-Michael

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Who is Accountable? The other day I witnessed a cut away that the reserve looked very funny. After the jumper landed I relised that his Rigger forgot to attach one line (the outside right front on an Tempo reserve) to the riser. The jumper was mot injured but the reserve was hard to fly straight and impossable to flair. My question "is this noted in some Rigger lifetime history or something?

Does this issue make you want to have rigs repacked more often than 120 days or longer than 120 days? Just think, a rigger is human and can make mistakes which you could be jumping. Of course you would rather not have to jump a riggers mistake, but if you were, would you rather jump it for 120 days or 180 days?



the answer is: doesn't matter.
More or less repacks does not affect error rate of riggers. if you got a bad reserve repacked, there is the same amount of chance that it would be repacked incorrectly the next time.

possible if you always use the same rigger and the rigger does'nt progress in learning more. recently i I&R'd a racer with 2 holes in the reserve p/c, the brakes were set 3" shorter than factory specs, and the rubber bands for locking stows on the freebag had degraded. The velcro on the sides of the container and on the main steering toggles did'nt hold anymore, did it matter to the previous rigger? i dunno. did it matter to me, yes and the p/c was replaced, brakelines set to specs, and velcro replaced, and all stow bands replaced. If the jumper had to use the reserve, it probably would have worked fine. Should i have replaced these parts even if the rig would have operated fine without replacing/resetting/repairing these parts? I could've let it all go without, and serviced the gear like the past rigger. But....

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Point taken, there is a dbase. But is it available to the general public or skydivers to browse through?



Yup. It contains all people holding airmen certificates - riggers, flight attendants, pilots, etc. It's on the FAA website.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

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:)
It is NOT funny at all, it is one more case of a chain of rigging errors we see in the market.

:( I would start looking more deep into the the riggers training system which is so easy with giving the certificates after 1 week or so of training -no way become a "Rigger" as a Rigger should be in 1 week doing 20 pack jobs, sewing, inspection & more basics needed.

Skydivers, Riggers, DPRE's, FAA, USPA & Other National Association, PIA, Mfg. wake up & do the changes needed to be done ASAP, you are dealing with people LIFE here.

What do you think ?

So easy to be a rigger - so hard to be a GOOD RIGGER !!!

Safe Rigging & Safe Riggers !!!

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you can pack it under supervision of a properly rated rigger. That's part of how riggers become riggers.

;) Should be under supervision of a well trained & properly rated rigger !!!

The "Funny" thing is that you can get your certificate yesterday & supervise a pack job today - I would say it is very SAD :(

Safe Riggers !!!

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:)

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you can pack it under supervision of a properly rated rigger. That's part of how riggers become riggers.

;) Should be under supervision of a well trained & properly rated rigger !!!

The "Funny" thing is that you can get your certificate yesterday & supervise a pack job today - I would say it is very SAD :(

Safe Riggers !!!

Unfortunately so. Events do happen with rigging that could be called mistakes, a not so good or not so well trained rigger could be vulnerable to making the same mistake over and over again. I guess so could a good rigger,less likely. With the dawn of the 180 day pack cycle the newbie riggers I think would get even less practice unless they absolutely chose too. Parachutes rigged 4x a year vs 2x a year, that's half as much currency and practice. Are the young riggers going to be able to learn from the 'old legendary pioneering rigger types' probably not. Will a newbie rigger be able to be a rigger in about 2 weeks, yep.

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120 day repacks are 3x a year plus 5 or 6 extra days a year. 180 day repacks moves it to 2 times plus 5 or 6 days. Its reducing the currency by 1/3 not 1/2.

There are multiple classes out there that you can show up to on Saturday and do all yoiur repacks in the course of 2-3 days. Then you spend a day or two sewing and then the last day or two of the class you are taking your tests and walking out with your rigging certificate. Are these a bad thing?
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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>>I don't think there's a db of riggers
It's here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/NameToSearch.aspx?LName=dsfsdfsdf&FName=sdfsdfsd&suffix=&Employer=dsfsdfsdf&Street=sdfsdf&City=sdfsdf&StateKY&Zip=12345&Country=USA&Phone=

It's a weird site. But just type anything into the first page's required fields as you just want to get to the next page.

You then type in (at least) the last name and country (the country is required, even though it's not marked so.) And you'll get back all the FAA certificates, with date of issue, the person holds.

As far as problem riggers, there is no public records on them like with doctors, but if any action by the FAA is taken against a particular certificate it must be noted somewhere in their files. However, it would probably take a freedom of information request to get it.

Like others have said it usually never gets that far. And, as stated, the "friendly phone call" usually does the trick as riggers live and die on their reputations. Except one time I called a rigger on the other side of the county after I found a plastic soda cap inside his pack job. He told me to go F-myself and called me a west-coast fag, LOL . . .

If you (as a rigger or just a concerned jumper) feel the need to proceed further the next step would be going to your local FAA Designated Rigger Examiner. Here is So Cal these people have always been active jumpers (but that's not always the case in all areas) and let them handle it. The problem with going straight to the FAA district office is nobody there will have (generally) a clue what you're talking about. I remember when I took my FAA rigger written test I had to spend twenty minutes convincing the guy at the counter that they actually administered that test . . .

Also we did have a problem rigger here some years ago and it was brought to the attention of the Rigger Examiner. She "convinced" the rigger to "surrender" his ticket and that was the end of that . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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