Why have a pack cycle?

[CrazyL 0]

120 days?, 180 days?, 2 yrs?, 5 yrs? The same reasons and/or lack of reasoning to have a 120 day pack cycle could easily be applied to any # of days/ years for a pack cycle. Why even have a pack cycle? Why not leave the inspection and packing up to the jumpers discretion?

[2shay 0]

you would still need to replace your loop though

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[CrazyL 0]

why replace the loop? and when?

[2shay 0]

the loops fray and wear just like anything else. Not really sure on time prob about 6 months

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[Miami 0]

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Why not leave the inspection and packing up to the jumpers discretion?

Exactly why I got my ticket.

Miami

[CrazyL 0]

On some rigs and how the rig is used the loop should be replaced more often than 120 days, like on some demo gear jumped in the desert dirt. I have had a pro shop that I used to service their gear trained to advise me of any sort of issues they see on gear, used to be like that. I dunno how they do the biz now as I have moved on. about the loop: in other words the jumper could still be the one in discretion of when to change the loop. As long as we don't do away with gear checks prior to jumping then loop wear can be caught prior to jumping. Unless of coarse there is a frayed loop inside the container you can't see with a simple gear check due to an aad cutter. AAD cutters cutting loops prematurely really is no big deal , right? lets go to a 2 year pack cycle, please!

[CrazyL 0]

So in other words, you have discretion on what happens to your gear. Am I right?

[johnny1488 1]

So Larry, you had Sonic "trained" on exactly what? What did he have to tell you about his gear? Or is that another "pro shop" you were at?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[CrazyL 0]

I gotta say, Sonic's rental gear is some of the cleanest, most up to date,great selection, well maintained rental gear that i've seen at any dz. If you read in my post something about a desert area. The Ranch is nothing like a desert now is it.Sonic's gear does'nt land in a desert. The Ranch is like a frikken ranch, a one of a kind kinda place. Sonic was trained before i got there. Did you really think I was talking about training Sonic.You gotta be kidding me. And for you last question, another dz.

[Miami 0]

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So in other words, you have discretion on what happens to your gear. Am I right?

To my gear, yes. I know what conditions it has seen between each repack. If something warrants repacking it the day after a repack, then a new I&R it gets. Otherwise...

Miami

[NickDG 23]

>>Why even have a pack cycle?
I can't speak for all riggers, but most I know including myself, will go a year between reserve repacks. Of course that is nullified if something happens to the rig that warrants a look-see. And that's the real point of an I&R. It's not so much of a repack as it is an inspection.

All the older jumpers still remember the acid mesh problem. A (non-skydiving) manufacturer added a fire retardant to the mesh it produced as the mesh was primarily used to make camping tents. This same mesh was used in many round reserve canopies and the chemical in the mesh would consume the adjacent fabric panels when packed.

There is no reason to believe something of that nature could not happen again. It's why PD requires a pull test on modern reserve canopies and why most good riggers will, at least, do a cursory thumb test on any reserve in a few places before packing.

There have been a few smaller in scope recalls over the years usually involving a bad lot of fabric or line. Sometimes it involves a flaw in the raw materials or a missed step in the manufacturing process. It's why PD, Strong, and the rest, including all the BASE canopy manufacturers, are so anal about tracking these materials. They must know what fabric and line went into what canopy by serial number in case they need to notify the owners of a problem.

Another issue, at least for me, are the batteries in modern AADs that have their works packed inside the reserve container. I remember this story from a rigger back in the mid-90s and I saved it for my files.

>>>For the benefit of any rigger changing Cypres batteries, I am posting this experience I had last week that could potentially have been very dangerous. In order to make it impossible to re-install old batteries, I typically cut the leads of any 2-year old batteries that I remove from Cypres units. I didn't have my scissors handy that fateful night last week so I simply pulled the little blue connector of the end of the wires and put the battery aside to return to SSK for recyling. About 5 minutes later while I was busy stuffing the freebag, I heard a loud "POOF" followed by a hissing noise. I thought I must have had a plumbing problem in my basement and as I walked around to try to locate the source of the noise I was almost knocked over by a very noxious odor. There, on the floor, the Cypres batteries I had just removed were smoking and sputtering! I held my breath and quickly shoveled them onto a section of bare concrete floor since they were too hot to pick up. After opening the windows of the basement, I checked out the battery and found that in removing the connector, I had inadvertently shorted the leads for the battery together and as a result it had blew its little guts out. The battery jacket had ruptured and the cells got hot enough to melt the plastic wrapping on the batteries. I was VERY lucky that I had put the battery far enough away that it didn't spew acid on me or the reserve I was packing; all I lost was a section of my basement carpet and probably a few days off my life due to the fumes.
So basically you have this small time bomb in your reserve container if the batteries short out. (And yes, any battery could suffer an internal short just sitting there) All this talk of longer repack cycles, with some suggesting up to 5 years, will be suddenly moot if we ever suffer through a bad lot of faulty batteries. If that happens it's possible the pendulum could swing back to a repack cycle that existed when I first started jumping. And that means saying hello to your rigger every 60 days.

Anyway, that's the reason for not having arbitrary repack cycles. It's inspection, inspection, inspection . . .

NickD BASE 194

[RiggerLee 61]

I'm all in favor of leaving it to the individuals personal discretion. Within five years the fatality rate would triple and I think this is just the thing we need to separate out the chaff. If you can't take care of your self what are you doing in this sport? Let people be as silly as they want and let them face the consequences of there own decision. The whole issue of aad batteries is I think a moot point as in my humble opinion no one off student status should be allowed to jump one.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Butters 0]

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The whole issue of aad batteries is I think a moot point as in my humble opinion no one off student status should be allowed to jump one.

Serious? What about accidents that incapacitate an individual ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[NickDG 23]

Sadly, and we'll both get ripped for this, I agree, because I feel the same frustration with the sport nowadays that you do. But you probably won't get much support for those ideas here on this board. The major demographic here is just too un-technical. Which is pretty funny for what's supposed to be a tech-savvy generation. Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . .

We can only keep trying to educate, and even though we are pissing in the wind most of the time, someone out there in the either is hopefully getting it.

I knew the end times were here when I started meeting people who jumped off buildings in the middle of the night who couldn't assemble a three-ring. Where would all these people be if they had to contend with the very complicated gear of yesteryear? Oh, yeah, nowhere . . .

And that makes your point.

NickD BASE 194

[RiggerLee 61]

I really wasn't joking. The very small percentage of people ligitamently knocked out might just have to be sacrificed to the Sky Gods. I can count the instances of KO over the last fifteen years on my fingures where as I've totaly lost count on the number cypres and others have tried to kill with dual canopies. Honestly I don't know why you would want one. You'd be much better off buying a helmet. A REAL helmet, not some skydiveing POS.

On a less political note. Has any one thought about incorperating a small window next to the cypres instalation with a peace of littnis paper? My chem isn't that great. Would it turn over time?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[CrazyL 0]

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I'm all in favor of leaving it to the individuals personal discretion. Within five years the fatality rate would triple and I think this is just the thing we need to separate out the chaff. If you can't take care of your self what are you doing in this sport? Let people be as silly as they want and let them face the consequences of there own decision. The whole issue of aad batteries is I think a moot point as in my humble opinion no one off student status should be allowed to jump one.

Lee

Your opinion is respectable here Lee. I agree with you about if you can't take care of yourself in this sport than why are you in it. I mean, thanks to those types who need all the devices to save their ass for helping fill the loads and buying beer and stuff. So Lee i'd like your opinion on what you think we may find at 180 days that we don't find at 120 days, and if the majority of the time a rig is all good why not boost the pack cycle to 2 or 5 years.

[CrazyL 0]

So NickDG, when the mesh problem existed, was there a 60 day pack cycle? If the pack cycle had been 180 days would some of parachutings pioneers still be here today? Or would there been more deaths due to lesser amounts of inspection per year? And yes, i understand the need to track fabrics, very glad that manufacturers do that.

[NickDG 23]

No, the acid mesh problem began in about 1987, when Rigger Mike Smith found the first bad reserve in Texas, the repack cycle went from 60 to 120 days in 1978.

Your question isn't easy to answer.

First of all, I'm not sure anyone actually died from the acid mesh problem (I might be wrong) but even if that's correct, the potential was certainly there. (An old rigger has to remember a lot more than a new rigger ).

But there are other things you'll see over time that aren't so easily measured. Like all the stories of rigger's table popping a reserve and finding a big problem in assembly or packing. Then you hear the jumper who owns it say, "Holy shit, I've made a few hundred jumps on that rig that way." I personally found a reserve with an open connector link and that rig was jumped for a year in that condition. I found another with the steering lines not through the slider. Most experienced riggers have a story like that.

Another issue is it's not just canopies and containers that can have hidden problems; there have also been recalls on pilot chutes with weak or poorly designed springs, etc. Also, and maybe to a lesser extent, the longer a reserve sits in a tight free bag the more "brick" like it becomes. If a new jumper knows it's already 180 days he'll maybe stretch that out longer, without being aware a "low and slow" cutaway might fail just because they lost a precious few seconds. Something to think about - is when will the repack cycle get so long we are going to have seriously consider re-attaching the reserve pilot chute?

The change from the 60 to 120 day cycle made sense for lot of reasons, but those reasons (in my mind) don't extrapolate as well to making it too much longer.

As an aside someone PM'd to politely say it sounded arrogant for me to say some riggers go a year between repacks when the rest have to follow the rules. Granted, but one difference is riggers have their ear to the ground so to speak. There is a good grapevine in the rigging community and potential problems, or just new advice like watch out for this or that, becomes known a lot faster than in the general skydiving populace. It's why I discourage people from becoming riggers just to pack their own reserves. If you don't actually work in a loft, or spend time around other riggers, it's too easy to be out of the loop when something important comes up. And by the time USPA reports on something in PARACHUTIST it can be way too late.

NickD BASE 194

[RiggerLee 61]

Honestly I don't think we'll see that much diffrence at 180 days. Don't get me wrong, I've opened packs and found some scary shit. Example: A Softy with a perserve that has some type of polly cotton diper. The rig had gotten wet. The lines of the full stow had absorbed and held all the water and the diper had been completely eaten by mildue. It was gone. The tape around the edge was all that was left. I'm not trying to start shit but if you want to be really tecnical that canopy should actualy be under a 60 day cycle. Even if it had been I'll bet the out come would have been the same. I'll bet that happened in under two weeks. If a Cypress had a melt down I'd bet the dammage would be done in a matter of houres or at most days. Most wear issues I get on people about happen over longer periods of time. I'm generaly on them for a couple of cycles before they get new risors or what ever.

You could argue that if some thing happens to the pack job that you are exposed to the danger for a longer period of time. On the other hand it was just a few months ago that we found a C9 with a moler strap tied around the skirt of the canopy. Jeff just about freaked when he opened it. It was the first black death rig he'd seen. So are you better off with the added wear, possable damage, and errors you face in haveing it packed more often or risking a longer cycle? In the end I don't think it will make any real diffrence. Most skydivers today actualy take pretty good care of their equipment. The ones I worry about the most are the pilot rigs and most of those are for all practical purpouses on a yearly repack cycle any way.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[RiggerLee 61]

By the way, something I did back when I was jumping a Sorceror was to put a velcro tab in the top of my free bag like in the top of a direct bag, 1*4 in. So that it would at least streatch the canopy out.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[NickDG 23]

Yes, I don't know how many hangars I've been in and found pilot rigs hanging, by one riser, off a nail in the wall. Or, all the pilot rigs that sit in an airplane all year long baking in the sun.

I guess the saving grace is they don't get used all that often . . .

But, I do remember a pilot years ago who bought a used sailplane and a parachute came with it. Well, he wound up using it, and not only were the lines daisy chained, they were daisy chained in the wrong direction so there was no chance they'd come out.

NickD BASE 194

[NickDG 23]

>>as to put a velcro tab in the top of my free bag like in the top of a direct bag
That's a good thing . . .

NickD BASE 194

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm all in favor of leaving it to the individuals personal discretion. Within five years the fatality rate would triple and I think this is just the thing we need to separate out the chaff. If you can't take care of your self what are you doing in this sport? Let people be as silly as they want and let them face the consequences of there own decision. The whole issue of aad batteries is I think a moot point as in my humble opinion no one off student status should be allowed to jump one.

Ignoring the stupid AAD crack...(search shows the argument done 100s of times)

The FAA probably wouldn't care about going up deaths a year, but they would care about us playing lawn darts with the airports.

To me, the value of a standard is with rental and borrowed rigs. You can't pick up a rig and inspect the reserve before jumping. Seeing that it was I&R'd in March (5 months ago) tells you something. A standard of care is being enforced with this reg. It's a problem when someone chooses to ignore maintenence and dies as a result. But it's a bigger mess if one person's choice to skip maintenence results in a different person getting killed.

Of course if it was pencil packed, it is fraud (and should be punished accordingly) and may not provide the assurance you expect.

[riggerrob 558]

When Canada switched to a 180 day repack cycle (from 120 days) in 2000, we did not see nay difference in malfunction rates.
In truth, the change was merely a pragmatic admission by CSPA that they were doing well if they could convince most Canadian skydivers to get their reserves inspected once per year ... in the spring time.
Hint: most Canadian DZs only operate 5 or 6 months per year.

However, I strongly disagree with the notion of Americans switching to a 180 day repack cycle. 180 days would work great for Wisconsinites - because they suffer the same climate as Canadians, but would be foolish for Southern Californians, who jump 11 months out of the year and routinely grind their rigs through desert sand and salt.
If you saw some of the demo rigs that I repacked for Square One ...
In conclusion, if Southern Californians took parachute maintenance serious, Koji would still be walking today.

[riggergreg 0]

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Most skydivers today actually take pretty good care of their equipment.

RIGHT!!