Why have a pack cycle?

[NickDG 23]

A further lesson, and just something for new jumpers to consider, is that some people just get "selected" in this sport. Most of the time it can't be said they were totally, or even partially at fault.

There was the first person to be paralyzed when his Nova folded up (a former student of mine.) There was the first person that died finding out line twists on Stilettos weren't something you could just kick out (Bruce Geiky.) There was the first person who died finding out ultra skinny suspension line called for more attention to container snag points (James Martin.) There was the first person who died finding out an AAD can fire during a swoop landing (Adrian Nicolas.) And there was the first person who died finding out you can't be a very large person (Sorry, I'm drawing a blank on his name) and jump with un-reinforced Type-17 risers. And the list could go on and on and on . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[ChrisL 2]

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120 days?, 180 days?, 2 yrs?, 5 yrs? The same reasons and/or lack of reasoning to have a 120 day pack cycle could easily be applied to any # of days/ years for a pack cycle. Why even have a pack cycle? Why not leave the inspection and packing up to the jumpers discretion?

To suggest that wanting it to be longer than the current 120 day standard is the same thing as wanting to completely eliminate it all together is a rather absurd position

__

My mighty steed

[CrazyL 0]

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120 days?, 180 days?, 2 yrs?, 5 yrs? The same reasons and/or lack of reasoning to have a 120 day pack cycle could easily be applied to any # of days/ years for a pack cycle. Why even have a pack cycle? Why not leave the inspection and packing up to the jumpers discretion?

To suggest that wanting it to be longer than the current 120 day standard is the same thing as wanting to completely eliminate it all together is a rather absurd position

Absurd, maybe so. Q: if you had the choice as to when to have your gear inspected when would that be and why?

[billvon 2,384]

>will be suddenly moot if we ever suffer through a bad lot of faulty batteries.

I don't understand this point. An internal short of the sort you describe, although extremely rare, will destroy the battery pack within about a minute. So unless you're talking about repacks every 30 seconds you're not going to catch the problem before it causes damage.

However, the most common cause of problems with batteries is handling (as you discovered) - and thus the most dangerous time after a repack is the first few minutes of the rig just sitting there. By that argument, REDUCING the amount of handling of the cypres/battery combination is the best way to prevent a problem like that.

[NickDG 23]

A battery can leak without shorting out. A battery can leak and still power the device to which its connected. The acid could damage the reserve canopy without you knowing it. The longer you carry around the reserve the longer you are exposed to the risk of using it.

NickD BASE 194

[RiggerLee 61]

What do you think of the litness paper idea? I didn't get any responces to that thought. Do you think it has any marit?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[CrazyL 0]

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What do you think of the litness paper idea? I didn't get any responces to that thought. Do you think it has any marit?

Lee

I like the idea, but it's similar to the Koji accident in the way that if it ai'nt broke don't fix it mentality. Until there is a common problem with the device not many seem to care. Lee and NickDG, how do you feel about the difference between cypres batteries that have gone through prep and QC by Airtec vs. Argus battery replacement that you buy at walmart that has no QC and no handling by the manufacturer of the aad? Trace ability?

[ebeziere 0]

Just so you know, out here in France the repack cycle is 365 days.. No one seems to complain about it, and saying that this triples the fatality rate is very unaccurate as most deaths are bad swoops and collisions... You very very rarely hear of a reserve with a malfunction.
The repack has to be done by a professionnal and there are very few packers.. In fact, lots of instructors are not reserve packers. So basically you get your reserve checked once a year by a real pro and it looks like a good system to me (at least it seems to be working fine

Of course a 120 days repack is great too, but i m not sure it s very usefull as longer cycles seem to work.

Just my 2 cents here, I'm a beginner so maybe I'm ignorant lol.

[CrazyL 0]

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Just so you know, out here in France the repack cycle is 365 days.. No one seems to complain about it, and saying that this triples the fatality rate is very unaccurate as most deaths are bad swoops and collisions... You very very rarely hear of a reserve with a malfunction.
The repack has to be done by a professionnal and there are very few packers.. In fact, lots of instructors are not reserve packers. So basically you get your reserve checked once a year by a real pro and it looks like a good system to me (at least it seems to be working fine

Of course a 120 days repack is great too, but i m not sure it s very usefull as longer cycles seem to work.

Just my 2 cents here, I'm a beginner so maybe I'm ignorant lol.

Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Just so you know, out here in France the repack cycle is 365 days.. .

Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more?

No if

- There was a cycle component; say 500 jumps. This is becoming increasingly easy with all the electronics - a Cypres-2 with current software means the rig tracks cycles for you. In the absence of cycle-counts you can fall back to 12 or 6 months in the same way a turbine is unairworthy without its counts.

- There was an accessable database with potentially problematic gear which could be checked at manifest time. Given ubiquitous internet connectivity this is practical. Without the infrastructure for this sort of on-condition maintenance you could fall back to a 12 or 6 month cycle.

- There was an indication of adverse environmental exposure. We already have gadgets which change colors when exposed to moisture, heat, etc.

You could also split main-container + harness inspection from reserve AI&R, requiring the reserve repack less frequently (more with natural materials like rubber stows).

[Broke 0]

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What do you think of the litness paper idea? I didn't get any responces to that thought. Do you think it has any marit?

Lee

The paper degrades with exposure to air

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[CrazyL 0]

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Just so you know, out here in France the repack cycle is 365 days.. .

Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more?

No if

- There was a cycle component; say 500 jumps. This is becoming increasingly easy with all the electronics - a Cypres-2 with current software means the rig tracks cycles for you. In the absence of cycle-counts you can fall back to 12 or 6 months in the same way a turbine is unairworthy without its counts.

- There was an accessable database with potentially problematic gear which could be checked at manifest time. Given ubiquitous internet connectivity this is practical. Without the infrastructure for this sort of on-condition maintenance you could fall back to a 12 or 6 month cycle.

- There was an indication of adverse environmental exposure. We already have gadgets which change colors when exposed to moisture, heat, etc.

You could also split main-container + harness inspection from reserve AI&R, requiring the reserve repack less frequently (more with natural materials like rubber stows).

Sounds like some right 'No if's' More and more it seems that jumpers are taking care of their main canopies by getting relines and canopy repairs as needed. Still several, I mean most jumpers don't either know or maybe it's 'don't care' about the condition of the kill line in the kill line collapsible pilotchute. I like the idea of inspecting gear at a certain number of uses, more than time. For gear that has natural products like stowbands the replacement of those parts should be under a time constraint. For my customers I expect their gear to maintain a certain 'look'. If they can see reserve p/c fabric,or p/c spring on side flap, loose or frayed loop, bent pin, etc. I want to see the gear regardless of what the pack cycle is. I just inspected and packed a rig that could go 2 years, been rigging it for 2 years and no changes. My only real concern is how 'brick' like the reserve canopy would be.

[ebeziere 0]

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Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more?

Interesting question.

I don't think I know enough about the durability of canopies (since i've only been in the sport for less than a year) to answer that question but I'd like to ask another question : why would anyone want a repack cycle longer than a year?

I can understand why people want cycles to be longer than 120 days because it's during the season so it s a pain in the ass. But once a year is long enough and very practical : everyone has their gear repacked every winter break, they know they are good to go for next season and that's it.
I don't own a chute but I think I would like to know that my gear is perfectly ok to start another year of skydiving.

And I have to say that I think a one year cycle is not more dangerous than a 120 days cycle if the repack is done by a guy with experience and is being done very nicely.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I can understand why people want cycles to be longer than 120 days because it's during the season so it s a pain in the ass. But once a year is long enough and very practical : everyone has their gear repacked every winter break, they know they are good to go for next season

Many of us don't have seasons dictated by weather. Other considerations come in - ski season, football season, etc.

[maurice1369 0]

Why is it people are makin a big stink about the 120 day pack cycle. The only reason most people are even complaining is because someone decided that "hey, let's change the repack cycle to 180 days" and honestly now people want to save that $100 dollars a year. I for one have no problem spending the money for a repack because I will always know that if for some reason I do need to cutaway my main canopy for any reason that my reserve is going to open. So everyone quit bitchin and lets have fun. I mean hey we all are doing something that is very dangerous no matter how you put it so lets minimize the risk and jhave fun

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[chrismgtis 0]

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Why is it people are makin a big stink about the 120 day pack cycle. The only reason most people are even complaining is because someone decided that "hey, let's change the repack cycle to 180 days" and honestly now people want to save that $100 dollars a year. I for one have no problem spending the money for a repack because I will always know that if for some reason I do need to cutaway my main canopy for any reason that my reserve is going to open. So everyone quit bitchin and lets have fun. I mean hey we all are doing something that is very dangerous no matter how you put it so lets minimize the risk and jhave
fun

Agreed. I don't mind the current cycle.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[CrazyL 0]

I'm with you. One of the things i'd like to get out of this thread is a consensus from jumpers of various levels about a pack cycle that a jumper as an individual would be comfy with and why, if they had the choice. Why would some use 120 days? why not 2 yrs? 5 yrs? Why not just have the reserve assembled once and packed once till the thing is used in flight. What do the jumpers think?

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Crazy,

Well, it is not a direct comparison to the current world, but back in the late 60's - early 70's I went 2 1/2 yrs without repacking my Navy conical.

Every now and then I did open the container and look at things; if all looked OK (and I did check the rubber bands), then I closed it up and resealed it and dated the packing card, etc.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Don't tell the FAA

[kelpdiver 2]

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Why is it people are makin a big stink about the 120 day pack cycle. The only reason most people are even complaining is because someone decided that "hey, let's change the repack cycle to 180 days" and honestly now people want to save that $100 dollars a year. I for one have no problem spending the money for a repack because I will always know that if for some reason I do need to cutaway my main canopy for any reason that my reserve is going to open.

So do the people in France who use a 365 day cycle, as well as those elsewhere using the 180 day cycle. No one decided "Hey, let's change it." It has already been done.

It used to be a 60 day cycle. On the minor detail, the repacks do age the reserve. Doing it monthly would suck for many reasons.

[tbrown 26]

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Most skydivers today actually take pretty good care of their equipment.

RIGHT!!

That's one of my concerns, is that a lot of jumpers nowadays expect their gear to save them without understanding how it works or what kind of warning signs to look for.

Actually, I try pretty hard to take care of my rig and a lot of it is by collaborating with my rigger. I look my gear over regularly and do things like cleaning my 3 ring cables every month (last time I did that I got to use them just 2 days later). But there's an amazing amount of stuff that I don't notice, even though I try - I don't have the trained & practiced eye of my rigger. Just for one example, he showed me how one of the grommets on one of my reserve flaps is slowly wearing a notch in itself from normal pack tension. This grommet is not visible, it's not even on the outer flap and I had no idea to even look for it. But he does, and he's keeping an eye on it and when it's time to replace the grommet, that's what we're gonna do. He's showed me stuff like the stitching inside my pilot chute that needed repair. The list goes on & on. I often end up paying for more work done than the original repack I'd put my rig in for. My wife is delighted that he gives my rig this kind of attention.

But sad to say, I also know he's the only rigger I've had who gives my rig this kind of detailed attention. Most riggers have just repacked the reserve and some of them don't even bother to replace the closing loop. People need to choose their rigger the way you'd choose your doctor, or your dentist. Or a pediatrician, because your rig is your baby...

Ultimately we have to save ourselves, but it's a big help when our gear performs as expected. And for that to happen, you need to cultivate a relationship with a good rigger.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[CrazyL 0]

well said

[brianfry713 0]

If you like getting your reserve repacked every 120 days, 60 days, 30 days, every jump, or whatever, you're free to do that even if the cycle changes to 180 days.

I think the 180 cycle is a great idea. It gives the jumper more options on when to get his/her gear inspected and repacked. I doubt any riggers are going to tell a jumper that they can't repack their reserve now because it's not due for another 2 months or more.

Most of the rest of the world uses at least a 180 day repack cycle, so I feel that just like with the required jumps to get a D license the US should switch to be more inline with everyone else.

Plus to me as a non-rigger it's more of a hassle to get it done every 120 days, not that everyone does, and I can see especially with my PD Reserve that it is going through more wear during the repack than if I had it done every 6 months.

[rehmwa 2]

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If you like getting your reserve repacked every 120 days, 60 days, 30 days, every jump, or whatever, you're free to do that even if the cycle changes to 180 days.

It's sad that we even have to point this out.

nicely said,

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RandomLemming 0]

I'm sure that the UK has a 180 day repack cycle, which includes a full inspection of the rig, and I'm not aware of any increase in incidents in the UK over locations with a shorter repack period.

I might be wrong though - I've been running around Africa for too many months now, and I'm not current right now :(

[itllclear 1]

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you need to cultivate a relationship with a good rigger.

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What he said!

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

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