What sized canopy is safe

[crashtested 0]

Until recently i have been using a Spec 210 before that a huge 340 student for my first 23 jumps.

I have no problems with the landings or the speed this new rig goes yet i have been advised to stick at this size for a while, however i would like to downsize.

The question i guess is what size do people think would be a good size to go down to, i am a big lad 16.5 stone / 108 kgs at 6ft 3in, but would like more performance out of the canopy, i also want a rig that i can stick with for my next 200 jumps as want to buy my own rig, rather than keep on using other peoples.

Ideas or comments?
Thanks

[Sockpuppet 0]

Well you are already at 1.13 wing load so peoples next question is going to be how many jumps do you have.

Edit: Just to add another response...you'll probably get told to speak to your instructores :D

------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

[baseknut 0]

Fill in your profile!!!

Step into my (sub)terminal Playground

[seal_S49 0]

Quote

you are already at 1.13 wing load

Only if you don't count the weight of the H/C, main canopy, reserve canopy, AAD, suit, helmet, etc. Add these to the jumper to get the exit weight, and there's the load that the wing must carry. I'm gonna guess more like 1.25:1.

In any event, progression to a different canopy design may be equally or more appropriate than going smaller, if more speed and lift are desired.

[bob.dino 0]

You're already loading the canopy at over 1.2.

Options if you want more performance: try a Safire2 210 or Sabre2 210. Or, learn to really fly the Spectre you've got at the moment. Can you do everything on Bill von Novak's Downsizing Checklist?

If you get a container to fit a 210, you can downsize to a 190 later on without having to sell it.

[D22369 0]

If somehow you have over 300+ jumps ignore the following...



i have been advised to stick at this size for a while, however i would like to downsize.
***

ya know, after being in this sport a for a few years, you tend to see your attitude alot, and most get a bit jaded and toss your name in a bounce lottery, I won a lottery once, still feel like there had to have been something I coulda said to prevent it - and I did try, many times to get through to him. But he was like you, wanted to go FAAAAST, without the experience to handle the increased speed, wouldnt take any advice or suggestions from any of us instructors, we just didnt know about his "mad" skills...

do as you please,
just make it easy on your S&TA - after downsizing smaller than the people that know how you fly recommend - on the next trip to the DZ take the time to fill out an accident and an incident report. your probably headed for one or the other.


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Tonto 1]

Big, big canopies are not as aggressive as smaller canopies at the same wing loading. You need to read things about wing loading. I estimate your wing loading at between 1.28 and 1.3.

Personally I think if you're not broken yet, and you stay sharp, you may make it to 200 dives on a 210 @ 1.2+. Experience, however, tells me that you won't. You'll get braver, have less respect and push harder, and the ground may push back at some point. When it does, you'll lose.

It's what I did back then, just before I broke my femur.

But hey. Maybe you're a "fast learner" who is "in touch with himself" and "meditates" and "raced superbikes" and "does martial arts" like some of the others here who had enough speed and talent to jump right out of one forum and into an incidents thread.

In answer to the question "What sized canopy is safe?"

In the end, it's you between the toggles, and mostly, it's what you do that determines whether you live or die. Nothing anyone says here will make any difference. A lower wing loading may allow a longer time frame within which to react if you do things wrong, and failing that, a slower impact speed than an equally aggresive turn at a higher wing loading.

Not sure where you jump either, but if it's hot or higher than 500 ft AMSL, your clock has been ticking since you got off that 340.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[NeedToJump 0]

Quote

I have no problems with the landings or the speed this new rig goes yet i have been advised to stick at this size for a while, however i would like to downsize.

It sounds like your question was already answered before you posted it on here. Stick with the advice you've been given by the people who know you and have seen you fly your current canopy.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[seal_S49 0]

Quote

What sized canopy is safe

There is no canopy size that is safe. Any canopy can kill you.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

I have no problems with the landings or the speed

Because you probably haven't been in a situation that really pushes your ability to pilot it.

[pinkfairy 0]

Quote

I have no problems with the landings or the speed this new rig goes yet i have been advised to stick at this size for a while, however i would like to downsize.


Ideas or comments?
Thanks

What about attending a canopy control course if you haven't already? Maybe you'll want to keep your current canopy if you learn more about what you can do with it? I went to the PD Factory team's course and it was a lot of fun, even if I have a big, lightly wingloaded canopy.

I can't comment on your wingloading or canopy type, as I have a low jump number myself, but speaking from personal experience, you can have a lot of fun on a bigger canopy.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[mnskydiver688 0]

Do a downwind off-field landing and then decide if you really want to downsize.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[popsjumper 2]

FWIW.
You, at about 237 lbs., are in PD's Spectre charts above the minimum for Advanced Pilot.

It's already been said...get a container that a 210 fits into and later, after you have fully explored and mastered the 210, you can put a 190 into it.

One other thing...IMHO:
You said, "...have no problems with the landings or the speed this new rig goes..."

Please keep in mind that landing and handling the speed are NOT all there is to masering a canopy. Until you have safely handled an emergency-avoidance maneuver, you don't know for sure what you are going to do when it happens. It's better to find out under a floaty rather than a rocket for obvious reasons.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

The question i guess is what size do people think would be a good size to go down to, i am a big lad 16.5 stone / 108 kgs at 6ft 3in, but would like more performance out of the canopy

Lots of good advice from others... listen to instructors/experienced people around you, they can tell you more.

You don't get "more performance" out of a smaller canopy, only the POTENTIAL for more performance. In the end, the pilot provides the performance. Learn your canopy... I guarantee you haven't even scratched the surface of it's performance envelope. I have 400 jumps on my current canopy and learn new things every weekend... and I regularly out-swoop several local sub-100 velocity pilots on my lowly Sabre2 loaded about 1.45/1.

Anyone have that video of one of the PD Factory guys swooping the hell out of a Nav 220?

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...You don't get "more performance" out of a smaller canopy, only the POTENTIAL for more performance. In the end, the pilot provides the performance. Learn your canopy... I guarantee you haven't even scratched the surface of it's performance envelope. ...

I get both a kick and a sick feeling out of the young guys who want to downsize and haven't yet learned how to handle what they already have.

They say, "I can stand up my landings". I say, "So what. What have you learned? You've learned how to land on a straight-in approach. Big deal. What are you going to do when the shit hits the fan on dodging the bozo that's trying to kill you? Plow yourself into the ground? Yeah laugh if you want to. It's been done. Many times."

As young as I am, I feel sick that I'm getting jaded and sometimes just want to say, "Go ahead. Knock yourself out. I won't be one of the guys carrying you off the field."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

I get both a kick and a sick feeling out of the young guys who want to downsize and haven't yet learned how to handle what they already have.

Agreed, but I want to add something. The assumption that this behavior is somehow restricted to the "young" or "inexperienced" irritates me. A couple of stories from things I've seen:

A jumper over 60 years old, with well over 1000 jumps (and not 30 years ago, either) who regularly jumps stiletto 120's, blade 120's, and the like. This person weights easily 250 out the door. He has like 4 rigs, and is constantly buying and selling gear, so never really gets more than a few dozen jumps on any one canopy. He rarely stands up a landing (to be fair, bad knees have the effect). Has very poor canopy skills overall. He regularly proclaims his goal to jump a sub-100 canopy "just to say he did it". This person insists he is safe, because he "flies conservatively" (i.e. he always comes strait in on final), and because he's been doing this for years, and "hasn't been hurt yet". Sound familiar?

An older (50-ish) style and accuracy jumper with thousands of parafoil jumps (and not much else), who bought a 111 velocity for his "fun rig". He says he's amazed at how much lift this thing produces, and after jumping an X-braced canopy, doesn't understand why anyone looking for performance would buy anything other than a X-brace, because it's so obviously superior. He, too, can barely stand it up, and at maybe 165 out the door, isn't even loading it that high.

After a jumper who was killed at a local DZ earlier this year due to a panic turn to avoid power lines. Said jumper was not an aggressive pilot, but was very uncurrent... maybe 3-4 jumps one weekend a month in the summer, and this was the first weekend of the season, and he had put on some weight. I couldn't believe the number of people (young and old, new and experienced) who were shocked that someone could be killed because "he was never an aggressive pilot" and "he was only jumping a 170 Sabre2".

The young and inexperienced are the loudest, the most boastful, the most obvious, and yes, frequently the most stupid. But look around... there are a LOT of people of all varieties in over their heads.

Quote

As young as I am, I feel sick that I'm getting jaded and sometimes just want to say, "Go ahead. Knock yourself out. I won't be one of the guys carrying you off the field."

I feel that way too sometimes, and I'm only 25. But we've got to hang in there, and try to help as best we can.

Exactly one time, someone had the balls to tell me a just did something really stupid. He was right, and I listened. For every hopeless jackass, there's someone else who just needs to be quietly pulled aside and given some good advice on how to get good with *less* risk of getting killed.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Andrewwhyte 1]

As has been said before, it is hard to say without knowing your experience level. However if you want more performance then probably the canopy type rather than size would likely be your next transition.
My advice is to stay at your current wing loading while moving to a nine cell rectangular or slightly elliptical (Sabre, Sabre II, Saphire, Saphire II, Hornet or Pilot 210). If you get a container built for that you can use it for many hundreds of jumps; if you decide to go to a 190 in a couple of hundred jumps it will still fit.
HINT: For a big guy like you you should really be focused on getting a harness that has a yoke that you find comfortable; over the next few years that will probably be the more critical choice.
Have fun.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Agreed, but I want to add something. The assumption that this behavior is somehow restricted to the "young" or "inexperienced" irritates me.

Agreed on all fronts. I used "young" in the sense of experience, not age, and I was going with the by far most common situation and realize that, yes, the problem is not age nor experience specific.

You have to agree that these problems come about through the "young" or "inexperienced" by far and away.

I hope the OP takes the good advice given by several here in that he takes a conservative approach to downsizing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Pendragon 1]

You're around 1.2 lbs/sq ft. now. I presume you're in the UK (who else uses stones? )

[14lbs = 1 stone, for the non-UK readers]

The 340 would be to put you just under 0.75 lbs/sq ft. to satisfy student requirements I'm guessing.

If you're happy with your present size - and so are your instructors - then it'll probably keep you going until jump 300... at which point (if your canopy skills are up to it), a 190 may be reasonable (but no smaller). I can't envisage you going any smaller for a long while (it will most likely take a few years for you to build up the jump numbers unless you become a jump hog ) Buy a container that would fit a 210 and a 190 main (and a large enough reserve for you!) I would expect a Spectre to pack up a little smaller than a 9-cell of the same size like a Sabre2 (less material).

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[labrys 0]

Quote

Anyone have that video of one of the PD Factory guys swooping the hell out of a Nav 220?

Here:

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1628&string=scott%20miller%20swoop

Owned by Remi #?

[sparkie 0]

Quote

I have no problems with the landings or the speed this new rig goes yet i have been advised to stick at this size for a while, however i would like to downsize.

Im 220 exit and i went from a 210 to a 168 (both pilot's) with a 190 for 1 jump in between.

I have had no problems, because i dont do landings beyond my capabilities yet. (i have also been a gliderpilot for 14 years, im not sure if that has helped me or not...)

You have to consider that making turns on a smaller canopy thats loaded higher burns a LOT MORE alti than on your huge student canopy. So yanking a toggle on final in a reaction to someone entering your airspace could be ouchie.

A safe canopy is one that fits your capabilities, no one here can give you an answer in sizes. Maybe you can fly a 170, but maybe you break your bones trying to land it. Take the advice of people that know your skills and have the best in mind for you, or go your own way.

hth

[pwln 0]

I don't really know if it's all about landing it safe under normal conditions. Lets say that you land off with that canopy, could you land it in someones back yard or a tight spot without hurting yourself? Can your big ass shut it down before that big hard fence?

[sparkie 0]

dont insult my ass

I know that recent studies show that US residents are getting smaller but over here in Europe weighing 90 kg @ 1m 90cm isnt that bigg ass ;P

I have several out landings and managed to put it into small fields that i picked out.

I'm not saying he has to go ahead and go too small, just maybe small enough for his competence level. One side effect I noticed after going smaller, and people should also consider beforehand, is that usually you have to deal with more traffic in the landing pattern/area, since you will be coming down a lot faster.