Rapid Downsizing

[billvon 2,384]

>The Cobalt 105, truly does not seem to be much faster than the Spectre 135.

I agree that it flies "big" although I'd say that the 105 flies more like a Spectre 120. But let's assume you are correct. Other canopies work in the other direction. For example, the Silhouette flies "small" - a 150 feels like a 135. So you could argue that from a "seems like" standpoint a Cobalt 105 flies like a Silhouette 150.

The issue is that if someday you need the lift/drag all that extra fabric on the Silhouette gives you, it will be there. It will not be there on the 105.

Small canopies are not a bad idea because they are unlandable. They are a bad idea because they require perfect approaches; they do not forgive mistakes. And everyone makes mistakes - especially people who have had fewer opportunities to screw up.

Look at it this way. Pretty much every skydiver will be cut off on approach, be forced to turn 90 degrees at 100 feet, have a kid run in front of them on final etc. The first time that happens to you - what canopy do you want to be under?

>I wanted to get a 9 cell simply for the flare.

Then get a Safire2 135.

[RaXz 0]

Maybe rapid downsizers should consider to rapid downsize they're ego's. Trying to be as cool as you can, increases the possibility to turn into a very cool corpse. And I sure hope that won't happen, it's not for nothing that so much experienced people are showing their concerns.

[DSE 3]

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I agree that it flies "big" although I'd say that the 105 flies more like a Spectre 120. But let's assume you are correct. Other canopies work in the other direction. For example, the Silhouette flies "small" - a 150 feels like a 135. So you could argue that from a "seems like" standpoint a Cobalt 105 flies like a Silhouette 150.

Bill, based on your comment above;
I'm currently flying a Silhouette 170 and 190. Was considering a Stiletto 170. I've ordered a demo, but in the meantime, what differences should I be anticipating?

[dharma1976 0]

if its the same demo they sent me it might just be a slammer of an opening

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[billvon 2,384]

>I've ordered a demo, but in the meantime, what differences should
>I be anticipating?

Slightly flatter glide. Lighter toggles; it may feel twitchy. Definitely odder openings. Shallower flare - you'll get most of the flare earlier in the stroke.

(Ironic you should ask me that - I jumped a Silhouette 190 a few times yesterday.)

[freeflysteve 0]

Hi
The katana 97 didn't actually go into line twists it after opening just went into a fast downward spiral which took me totally by surprise because there were no twists.
Brian Vacher my canopy coach from safe flight school in empuria explained the Katana was very different to the sabre2(i dont want here to detail but suffice to say much more of a ground hungry canopy) and that it was very sensitive to inputs from bad body position to say one leg strap slightly longer than the other.
Wingloading in itself i do not think was the issue more so my experience with very high performance canopies.
For the record i still have my original spectre 150 and sabre 2 135 and still jump them more than i do my 97.
Thanks
steve

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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The katana 97 didn't actually go into line twists it after opening just went into a fast downward spiral which took me totally by surprise because there were no twists.

Remember: you have your brakes set, your canopy is not in full flight, but in a kind of flare mode/half breaks. You may start that dive with rear riser if you breaks are still set. You can reproduce it even after opening if you start turning with harness than go for half breaks, the turn will dive and accelerate.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Hi
The katana 97 didn't actually go into line twists it after opening just went into a fast downward spiral which took me totally by surprise because there were no twists.

High performance ellipticals are sensitive to harness input. It's a great way to spiral to loose altitude if you want to get below lighter loaded canopies. Having the brakes stowed amplifies the effect and makes them more likely to stay in turns.

Do a high hop and pop sometime, leave the brakes stowed, and play with it.

To avoid that opening situation you really need to be symetrical at deployment time, relax until the canopy finishes sniveling or gets wonky, and apply harness or rear riser input as soon as something bad starts to happen.

It's especially important to deal with line twists before the canopy gets done opening.

[freeflysteve 0]

Thanks,will try that.
steve

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[wildfan75 1]

I'm struggling with a jumper in a similar situation right now...

This jumper is now jumping a Katana 97 with 340 jumps in 3 years (that's 113 jumps a year) at a WL of 1.47...acoording to his profile.

Could it be there that there are some that are "untouchables"?

[MagicGuy 0]

That jumper wouldn't be the same one that commented early on about his Cobalt 105, would it?

I am a small jumper (130lbs) with 420 jumps in a little under 3 years, 4 canopy courses under my belt and not to mention hours and hours of one on one canopy coaching with swoopers at my DZ.

All that said, my Sabre2 120 loaded at 1.27 is keeping me quite happy for the time being.

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind being on a 97 Katana at that kind of experience level and currency.

[billvon 2,384]

>I'd love to hear the reasoning behind being on a 97 Katana at that kind
>of experience level and currency.

Seriously? I've heard lots of reasons:

1) I will be REALLY CAREFUL until I'm more experienced.
2) You've never seen me land, so your opinion isn't worth shit.
3) I have a natural ability because I (ride motorcycles/fly airplanes/have a fast car.)
4) I asked around the DZ and this really really amazingly talented guy (a lot more talented than you) said I'd be fine.
5) Dave Splat jumped one with even fewer jumps and was mostly fine.
6) I've put 37 jumps on it and never once seriously injured myself.
7) I only jump it in good conditions.

Any others?

[NWFlyer 2]

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>I'd love to hear the reasoning behind being on a 97 Katana at that kind
>of experience level and currency.

Seriously? I've heard lots of reasons:

1) I will be REALLY CAREFUL until I'm more experienced.
2) You've never seen me land, so your opinion isn't worth shit.
3) I have a natural ability because I (ride motorcycles/fly airplanes/have a fast car.)
4) I asked around the DZ and this really really amazingly talented guy (a lot more talented than you) said I'd be fine.
5) Dave Splat jumped one with even fewer jumps and was mostly fine.
6) I've put 37 jumps on it and never once seriously injured myself.
7) I only jump it in good conditions.

Any others?

I believe you left out Mad Skillz™.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DougH 270]

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I believe you left out Mad Skillz™.

Mountain Dew..... extreeeeeeeeeme!!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[mnealtx 0]

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I believe you left out Mad Skillz™.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[regulator 0]

I cant make any comments about the person who is trying to buy your canopy but I just got my first rig and my main is the same size I've been jumping since student status (190). My next statement is this: When I was on student status ALL my instructrors at my DZ informed me of the hazards of downsizing and beat it into my brain that you should take your time downsizing and test jump several canopies before purchasing one. While I think the person that was trying to buy your canopy was well...a dumbass of sorts...at least they didnt lie to you and make up jumps and then you found out later the person was all jacked up from coming in too hot on landing. They couldve easily lied to you and had your old canopy in hand, and hurt themselves if you didnt have the right sense of mind to stop them. Thanks for looking out!

[sebinoslo 0]

At what point in time/which wingload do you need to take into consideration the downsizing factor?

My 7 AFF jumps were on a 270. The week after I went to a different DZ and jumped a 240 4 times but everyone at the DZ implied that the 220 they have can be used without a problem.
According to Germain's chart I could jump a 190/210 as a "newbie".

I weight 170/175lbs out of the door...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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At what point in time/which wingload do you need to take into consideration the downsizing factor?

My 7 AFF jumps were on a 270. The week after I went to a different DZ and jumped a 240 4 times but everyone at the DZ implied that the 220 they have can be used without a problem.
According to Germain's chart I could jump a 190/210 as a "newbie".

I weight 170/175lbs out of the door...

When you out of the student program.

[sebinoslo 0]

It is not recommended to downsize more than 15% at a time. But obviously, going from 270 to 220 is more than 15%, yet not a danger considering my weight, the wingload being still really (really) low.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It is not recommended to downsize more than 15% at a time. But obviously, going from 270 to 220 is more than 15%, yet not a danger considering my weight, the wingload being still really (really) low.

I guess as long as you are a student you instructor can decide what you can jump.

I jumped 220,260,280 as a student.

[humanflite 0]

Max wingloading on most student programs is 0,7

Dont forget, its not just the size of the main canopy, but also the size of the RESERVE that is in that rig as well.

[pchapman 261]

To update the list and add one more excuse:



Seriously? I've heard lots of reasons:

1) I will be REALLY CAREFUL until I'm more experienced.
2) You've never seen me land, so your opinion isn't worth shit.
3) I have a natural ability because I (ride motorcycles/fly airplanes/have a fast car.)
4) I asked around the DZ and this really really amazingly talented guy (a lot more talented than you) said I'd be fine.
5) Dave Splat jumped one with even fewer jumps and was mostly fine.
6) I've put 37 jumps on it and never once seriously injured myself.
7) I only jump it in good conditions.
8) I have Mad Skillz™.
9) I had to downsize. My old canopy wouldn't land right; this new one cuts through the air better and has more flare.



(#9 may be valid to a reasonable degree for a huge underloaded boat of a student canopy vs. a small canopy, but is usually just an excuse for a single size downsize)

[Baksteen 84]

10) Jumping a 'boat' isn't cool - nobody is buying anything over 150
11) I was seriously underloading my student canopy
12) I got a great deal on it!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Chris_K 0]

I read all the downsizing threads with interest. This one though has lost its focus.

A few points:

1. Who in this thread thinks that Brian Germains downsizing chart is too conservative?

2. The down size test: The whole point of this thread should be to warn others. Therefore you should be able to land off drop-zone, down wind or cross wind in high winds and low (or none) and still be able to land in someones back yard if necessary (don’t pick on the "backyard" phrasing, pick a 20ft X 20ft field if you prefer).

3. People often base their downsizing on their ability to land in the “perfect” landing zone (short grass, flat field) rather then the reality of when you need it. Base your ability to downsize on a real challenging landing. Can you land between sand dunes? In an alley? On a road if there are no other outs? Can you carve your landing around boulders, etc if you get too low and have no options? These are just some of the basic questions to ask. Rather then bashing people who post, we should all ask these questions. Others on the forum telling them that they are an idiot makes them defense and they will miss the point of the thread. If enough people ask the downsize questiosn (or ones along this theme) eventually these people will ask them selves the same questions. You cant change there minds, only provide information to make them change there own mind, bashing is counter productive.

4. Chris' (Canada) situation. I have flown with chris a few times and I, under a 170, sink out on him. He is a small guy. Yes the 105 is an aggressive canopy but he has shown good crowd awareness on turbine loads and can land within a 20ft of the bowl each time. This is not a justification; I don’t know if chris can land off under the criteria that I listed above, that is for him to decide. Rather I wanted to emphasize that he is a really small guy and the 105 is not as drastic as it sounds. (I would be flying a 2.2:1 on that canopy, that would be extreme but his 1.3 after 500 jumps........)

Thoughts?

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

[MagicGuy 0]

I'll throw some thoughts in ONLY because I, like Chris, am a small guy and have similar obsticles to overcome.

I am a little bigger than Chris - my exit weight is 152. I'm about 125, 130 without gear. Since around jump 100 I have put a lot of focus on canopy flight and swooping, and have taken 3 canopy courses and gotten lots of one on one coaching from respected guys at my DZ.

I just recently downsized to a Sabre2 120 after putting a majority of my skydives on a Pilot 150. A lot of those jumps were made with 10 pounds of lead and I was doing slow 90 degree front riser approaches and getting pretty decent swoops.. especially considering my weight and the canopy (very quick recovery arc).

I jumped Sabre2 135s in between here and there, putting probably 50 total on them before deciding to go buy a 120 instead of the 135. My decision was made based on my (fairly small) experience on 135s but also on the observations made by my canopy 'coaches'. My WL on my 120 is 1.27.

Being a small guy, it's a little different because 1.3 to me is being on a 120, while a bigger guy might be on a 190 at the same WL. We all know that that 1.3 doesn't translate, and a 190 is a lot safer at 1.3 than a 120 is. But it just makes our canopy progression a little different, and for me, slightly slower depending on how you look at it.

Like anything in this sport, I am a believer in taking things on a case by case basis. People dedicate time to different aspects in this sport, and therefore should be taken into consideration for being allowed a slightly different rate of progression.

BUT..

That being said, regulations still have to come into play, and there comes a point where regardless of size, WL etc.. there needs to be a line drawn.

I believe the current canopy that Chris is jumping is a Katana 97? Correct me if I'm wrong. That's quite an aggressive canopy, even at that WL. Speed isn't the only factor, either. Malfunctions like line twists turn into a big deal, and at our experience levels, is that something that we can recognize and deal with fast enough?

I am only touching on a few issues, mainly because I'm tired and have to get up to skydive tomorrow. Bottom line is.. I'm all for canopy progression to be taken on a case to case basis, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be drawing the line at a certain level here.

That's my measely two cents. Take it for what it's worth..