Rapid Downsizing

[frazeebd 0]

Wow. Lots of fire and brimstone on this thread, thats for sure.

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That gives me a loading of 1.28ish, say 1.3.

Chris, have you done any canopy control courses, or done any special canopy coaching or anything?
I just read "The Parachute and Its Pilot" by Brian Germain almost cover to cover (kinda skipped the swooping specifics part for now, I'll go back to that later) and found it to be very educational. A little preachy perhaps (you can tell Mr. Germain is definitely a psyche major ), but especially the information on accuracy and how to plan a landing was VERY cool. If you haven't read this, I would highly recommend it.
Of note, he recommends the whole Wingloaded-Never-Exceed chart based on jump numbers as well (ie. do not exceed 1.0 with less than 100 jumps, etc.)

I see the arguments being weighed here (all based on experience and an honest concern for the safety of others, mind you), and I also see that you are happy and secure in you're decision... well I hope all goes well for you, and I'd like to encourage you to be as safe as you can be. If you are gonna fly that high of a wingloading, maybe you could be safer by kinda staying out of traffic until you've got some more experience on it? Don't let me be the only guy landing out in the dirt instead of the nice grass strip

[livendive 8]

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Hey Skinny,

Based on your comment:

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I would fly a 1.1-.1.3 wingloading right now. You will learn so much more on a canopy that size than you will ever on a higher wing loading at your experience.

It seems to me that you think I'm loading it more than that? I weigh 115 lbs, about 135 EXIT weight. That gives me a loading of 1.28ish, say 1.3. I;m not at all saying this makes it any better, but I know guys with sub-200 jumps loading canopies at 1.6-1.8 elliptical and non-elliptical.

I was at a 1.35 wingloading at 50ish jumps. That was stupid and I wouldn't advise it to anyone. Thankfully, it was a fairly docile canopy (Triathlon) and I got very lucky to only have two minor landing injuries with it, both on the same jump (sprained R. knee and L. ankle). My first jumps at >2.0:1 were when I had 150-160 jumps, on a couple of Jalapeno's (a 120 and a 108). That was incredibly stupid, and I doubt I'd have escaped much more than the two jumps I made on them without hurting myself.

Assuming you've got somewhere around 200ish jumps (??) and average canopy skills for your experience, I don't really have a problem with your wingloading, but the Cobalt is a pretty aggressive canopy. Can you get away with it? Perhaps, especially if you keep yourself humble and keep your fallibility in mind. If I were you, I'd at least come up with a structured plan to familiarize yourself with the canopy, all of its control inputs, and its responses, then do some drill flights to ingrain a "flare first" muscle memory for unexpected situations near the ground. Humility, a desire to learn, and an overbearing eye toward safety will take you far.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Afternoon,

Guys, the posts that are coming are more helpful than you think. I'm getting good information now, not just being told I'm doing X or Y and need to stop.

I started out jumping a Spectre 135 loaded at 1:1 on my 32nd jump. I've done the last 95ish jumps on that Spectre. I am now on the Cobalt. There...you now have my jump number. I do only have a few jumps on the Cobalt up to this point.

For the people who have jumped a Cobalt, they may understand my next comments better, but for all the others, please consider before flipping out and saying I'm a moron etc... The Cobalt 105, truly does not seem to be much faster than the Spectre 135. This could be partly because the Spectre is sinking more than the Cobalt, but it may also have to do with trim. The Cobalt is definitely more divey on the front risers, but not by tonnes. Toggles...I'm not too sure yet, I know it dives more on a toggle turn, but as far as cranking around hard....not really. The flare is more pronounced...the Spectre is a fairly quick "to the shoulders" then immediately start finishing. That is my personal feelings on the Cobalt.

I will admit that I jumped an Jedei 120 a few jumps before the 105, and it was WAY faster, way divier, and way more responsive to toggles/risers/harness. I did one jump on it and had no "want" to do another, I was happy on my Spectre. I WAS SCARED jumping the 120. Then I jumped the Cobalt, and as posted above, didn't feel like huge change from the Spectre. The Cobalt is truly more docile than some other canopies. I still agree though, it is small and it is elliptical.

I wanted to get a 9 cell simply for the flare. Yes I'm coming back to this. The Spectre was fantastic, flare was great, always stood it up, nice landings, etc etc. I wasn't having trouble, but the day I jumped a Stiletto 135....I knew there was canopies out there with "longer" flares. Since that day, I was on the hunt....


As far as what I plan on doing, assuming I decide to keep jumping the canopy is as follows:

-Continue jumping at my 2 Cessna DZ where traffic is rarely ever an issue.
-Continue doing at least half of my jumps as hop and pops. I love going to 10K and dumping out the door of the plane. I love flying
-Try "again" to take a Scott Miller course (Last one was cancelled)
-Continue to have my landings filmed and learn from them, critique them
-Listen to the advice of my instructors, and ask them for advice.
-Continue to practice what is on Bollvon's down sizing checklist. (Yep, this has been in my gear bag since May of this year and I do use it)

There's a lot of things that I have been doing, and will continue to do. I have no want to swoop, or do high performance landings of any sort. I'm happy with the flight of the canopy. I just like flying!

Edit:
frazeebd - I'm not sure what you want me to answer from your post. There's no questions other than canopy control course and reading the book. I haven't read the book, but I've read other books, including flight manuals for airplanes and a lot on aerodynamics etc... Canopy course is answered above.

Thanks

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ether 0]

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-Continue doing at least half of my jumps as hop and pops. I love going to 10K and dumping out the door of the plane. I love flying

Interesting that you can do that, being close to an urban centre. Over here we are not permitted to open above 5000'. (I guess if there was an emergency, the tower would have to contact YVR AFR and hold traffic, then you can imagine the paperwork..)

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I started out jumping a Spectre 135 loaded at 1:1 on my 32nd jump.

I'm also surprised that you were able to do this. I have a street weight of 135 (exit weight ~150?) and although my landings are "good" (using your measure of good from your videos above) I'm still renting a 230, with no idea when I'll be able to jump my 170 sitting on a shelf. Did you get lots of canopy coaching when downsizing each time previously?

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I wanted to get a 9 cell simply for the flare.

So buy a Lotus, Pilot, Sabre2, or Safire2 of 135 square feet. You'll have to do more to screw up and will more likely to walk away from it when you do.

I don't like how the Spectre flares either, but there are alternatives in the same performance class.

[DSE 3]

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I started out jumping a Spectre 135 loaded at 1:1 on my 32nd jump.

I'm also surprised that you were able to do this. I have a street weight of 135 (exit weight ~150?) and although my landings are "good" (using your measure of good from your videos above) I'm still renting a 230, with no idea when I'll be able to jump my 170 sitting on a shelf. Did you get lots of canopy coaching when downsizing each time previously?

he weighs 115lbs, so exit weight is around 135 or so. With 150 jumps, he's likely just fine on a 1:1 wingloading with most canopies. In another 70 jumps or so, you'll probably be fine jumping your 170, depending on which 170 you have purchased. Chris rapidly downsized to a 1:1 wingloading after being off student status, which allegedly was with input from his instructors. I suspect most students go to a 1:1 wingloading in the 50-100 jump range. I did.
As mentioned before, the difference between a 230 and a 170 isn't as great a difference between a 135 and a 105, or a square vs elliptical, or a standard elliptical vs an Xbrace.

[tonka 2]

I have seen people killed and busted up by poorly executed swoops. (Grew up around the sport)

Rapid downsizing was never the cause of their problems.
The fatality was an individual with 500 jumps with a WL of 1.3
Another almost fatality was at the same wing loading.

Several other cases I know of are the same. Bad decisions on "a" canopy. Not a small overly advanced canopy they should not have been jumping.

My conclusion is any canopy no matter what size can be a problem if a bad choice or mistake is made while flying it.

Fatalities involving pro swoopers are usually due to the fact that there is only a split second to flare if coming in too deep or not plaining out on rears. Does that mean that they should never have been jumping these canopies?

Yes, jumping a larger canopy will give you more of a chance if a mistake is made but people dont realize that they made a mistake until they hit the ground. Even a larger canopy pounds you into the ground almost as hard as that smaller canopy.

Basically, individual skill is what I think matters when downsizing. Jump numbers do mean a lot but some people should just stick with a canopy longer and others should downsize more rapidly.

Many swoopers downsized rapidly and never got hurt while the guy that always took it easy broke his legs.

I currently jump a Competition Cobalt 85. I can land it straight in, i can land it after a brake surge, I can land it in a braked turn or braked approach, I can land it downwind, and I can do a 90 degree or 180 degree turn and land it. I can also land it wherever I want in the landing area. Does that still make me an unsafe danger when other people are considered safe bruising themselves on every landing just because their canopy is larger and more docile?

Many people on the forums will say I downsized too fast but I have also never had a problem. I always made sure I could perform the necessary tasks on my current before I went smaller. I have never turned too low to where I needed to stab out. I have an idea in my head that if I am not set up right for a turn....I just dont do the turn. I decide to practice something else like double fronts or accuracy.
It is very easy to stop a turn if you are too low. Many people get hurt trying to milk that turn out knowing they are low and they get what they asked for. A low turn injury.

I have never been warned about being too radical or doing something stupid. I was even told not to worry about jumping a smaller canopy and keep up the good work by experienced jumpers and instructors. I am at the point to where I understand and feel the canopy in its dive and can predict the plane out. Basically I am safer than ever but still jumping a small canopy.

Yes, I can be seriously hurt or injured and any mistake I make will probably be worse on a small canopy but I hope not to make those mistakes. I am a very conservative pilot and perfect my current landing method before getting into bigger turns, steeper dives, or new ways of doing something.

Just my two cents. Stay safe people.

[Ether 0]

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In another 70 jumps or so, you'll probably be fine jumping your 170, depending on which 170 you have purchased.

It's a well-used circa-2002 Safire (not Safire 2) which is about to get a new lineset. It's a goodwill longterm loaner (i.e. free), so I'm not opposed to paying money for something else if needed.

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As mentioned before, the difference between a 230 and a 170 isn't as great a difference between a 135 and a 105, or a square vs elliptical, or a standard elliptical vs an Xbrace.

Since we're on that topic.. is there a reference anywhere describing the performance differences between square/semielliptical/elliptical, and 7 cells/9 cells? It's alluded to in the articles about beginner gear (e.g. in the list of canopies suitable for n00bs) but nothing hardcore describing the actual aerodynamic differences... e.g. why 7 cells are preferred for CRW and accuracy, etc.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[dragon2 0]

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In another 70 jumps or so, you'll probably be fine jumping your 170, depending on which 170 you have purchased.

It's a well-used circa-2002 Safire (not Safire 2)

Then you do know that a safire 1 is about a size (8%) smaller than a safire 2 so it actually is a 160 right?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[bob.dino 0]

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...but at least they can see that I can land it properly.

Not entirely.

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This is my first jump on a borrowed 105:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CKMPcXAPym0

Feet and knees together. If you flared much later you could have kissed your pelvis goodbye.

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These are my 3rd and 4th jumps on my 105:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nbPOWRR-HkE

It's hard to tell from the camera-work, but you seem to be making lots of small control inputs - turning, then needing to correct heading slightly. That's inefficient - it slows your canopy down, and means that others aren't so confident about where you're going to end up.

How long is your canopy in full flight from your last input 'til you start your flare? Again, it's hard to tell, but for a straight-in approach, anything under 10s or so means that the canopy is still under the influence of your previous control inputs.

As others have mentioned uneven flares. And again, feet and knees together. When you fuck up (and we all fuck up), having the feet and knees together will make a PLF easy and save your ankles/knees/femur/pelvis.

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As far as rapid downsizing goes as a whole....yeah, I think it's a problem. I don't think everyone is capable of downsizing quickly. Some people "get it" more than others.

Those two videos, while hardly providing conclusive evidence, suggest that you don't (yet) quite "get it". Hopefully you will, and fairly soon.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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This is my first jump on a borrowed 105:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CKMPcXAPym0
These are my 3rd and 4th jumps on my 105:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nbPOWRR-HkE

Do care more about your legs on landings. Its not so wise to land in a wide stand. It might hurt your joints and if you don't keep your feet in front of each other you have a ticket for a face plant. Have you ever seen a runner in a cow-boy stand before the start?

Start using your hips and harness for small corrections on final. Harness turns are the most effective and loose less altitude.

[sparkie 0]

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I wanted to get a 9 cell simply for the flare. Yes I'm coming back to this. The Spectre was fantastic, flare was great, always stood it up, nice landings, etc etc. I wasn't having trouble, but the day I jumped a Stiletto 135....I knew there was canopies out there with "longer" flares. Since that day, I was on the hunt....

Cobalts, stiletto's?

I jump in holland and im not even allowed on those canopies yet. (have 200 jumps atm).

I jump a 168 pilot @ 1,3 and that was challenging enough, next upgrade will be around >400 jumps.

I'd stuff the cobalt in a closet for a while. This is what it says on the manufacturers website:

"Ultra high performance canopy designed specifically for competition swooping. The high efficiency wing is optimized for extreme distance.

For experienced pilots only.

The superior alternative to the Icarus VX and PD Velocity canopies."

Hope you stay safe...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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"Ultra high performance canopy designed specifically for competition swooping. The high efficiency wing is optimized for extreme distance.

For experienced pilots only.

The superior alternative to the Icarus VX and PD Velocity canopies."

Using marketing material ?

So quote vs quote!

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What's the recommended wing loading on a Cobalt?

The Cobalt canopy is an extremely efficient wing. It has the highest measured glide ratio of any skydiving canopy. The extra lift makes for a canopy that flies 'bigger'. To get equal forward speed when comparing to many other canopies you need to load the Cobalt heavier, i.e. 1#/’ on a Sabre should be compared to 1.2#/’ on a cobalt.

1.2-1.4 beginners
1.4-1.6 intermediate
1.6-1.8 high
1.8-2.2 pro
2.2-2.8 extreme
max tested landed wingload 3.6#

NOTE: due to the efficiency of the Cobalt wing, most experienced jumpers will jump a Cobalt 1-2 sizes smaller than competing canopies.

So? Does it prove anything?

[dharma1976 0]

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I do know that the downsize was agressive, I do know that I've increased my risk of injury. I know I'm intelligent, and I also think I'm a fairly good pilot.

Do a search on "Ted Nelson". You sound just like him. He told a lot of folks how good he was. He may become a great swooper, but he died before that happened.

Kevin Keenan

dude what are you trying ot get teds aunt cindy back on here stop that

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[airtwardo 6]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2895484#2895484

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Orange1 0]

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"Ultra high performance canopy designed specifically for competition swooping. The high efficiency wing is optimized for extreme distance.

For experienced pilots only.

Using marketing material ?

Alternatively, in the litigious US, trying to avoid themselves getting sued?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[br0k3n 0]

First let me just say, personally I don’t give a crap what canopy you choose to fly…

However you know as well a I, and everyone else on this forum you are way out of your depth on your cobalt..

There is absolutely no reason what so ever for you to be flying this canopy with your experience, skill (perceived or real) or jump numbers.. I am aware the some new jumpers feel pressure to be excepted as a serious, experienced or even "cool" jumper and one way they perceive this is to be seen flying a small high performance wing...

Making excuses about wanting more flare etc are bullshit, I have flown all of the canopies you have mentioned so I know from experience.. There are plenty of other canopies in the same performace class as the spectre, so why choose a cobalt? was it because the cool kids fly elipticals? I think it is.... as there is no other explantion...

You will and I would even put money on the fact that you will hurt yourself if you continue under this wing, if you don’t have the skill to do anything but a perfect, and I would probably add high performance landing on your first / second jump in the conditions you explained then you simply do not have the skillz / experience to be under it…

By the way how many rear riser landings did you have on your spectre?? I would guess “none”….

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[mnskydiver688 0]

I don't know about you, but I want to try out a 58 Xaos! It has the lift to set me down nice so what is the big deal!

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[mnealtx 0]

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I don't know about you, but I want to try out a 58 Xaos! It has the lift to set me down nice so what is the big deal!

I'm waiting on Cani to send me the VX39, myself....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[br0k3n 0]

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I don't know about you, but I want to try out a 58 Xaos! It has the lift to set me down nice so what is the big deal!

I'm waiting on Cani to send me the VX39, myself....

VX39 thats old school, ive just ordered a JVX1

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[sparkie 0]

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I don't know about you, but I want to try out a 58 Xaos! It has the lift to set me down nice so what is the big deal!

I'm waiting on Cani to send me the VX39, myself....

VX39 thats old school, ive just ordered a JVX1

soon ppl will start landing wingsuits and this whole need for a canopy nonsense will be done with

[phoenixlpr 0]

Nice pissing contest you have.

[freeflysteve 0]

Everybody here seems to be concentraring on the landings with little parachutes with high wing loadings.
MALFUNCTIONS happen much faster and what could be a simple line twist say on a spectre loaded at 1:1 or a student manta loaded at say1:.65 would be totally different on a highly loaded eliptical.
My katana 97 is so ground hungry just a turn on opening as a result of probably bad body position dropped me nearly a 1000ft before i could stop it on rear risers,suffice to say its back in its bag till i get more jumps under my belt with my spectre 107 and sabre2 97.
I did way over 600 jumps on my spectre150 before i even considered downsizing and that downsize was to a sabre2 135,didnt like the openings too much cos i felt with that canopy the slightly lower wingloadings tended to result in a lot of off heading openings which i dont get on the sabre2 97.
My five pennies worth.
Blue ones
Steve

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[wildfan75 1]

Quick question...do you think that the line twist issues was a result of jumping the Katana (characteristics of the canopy), or because you were jumping a canopy at a WL of 1.9 (according to the WL from your profile)?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Quick question...do you think that the line twist issues was a result of jumping the Katana (characteristics of the canopy), or because you were jumping a canopy at a WL of 1.9 (according to the WL from your profile)?

It's mostly the canopy. Most of the responsiveness to control input (including what you're doing during deployment, intentional or unintentional) comes from the canopy dimensions. Weight mostly adds speed which in turn increases the altitude lost for a given maneuver.

A Stiletto 120 feels about the same at 340 pounds under it as it does at 165 pounds or 200 pounds, just much faster. Mr. Bill has a hard time hanging on when you do turns.

This is why Brian Germain reduces the allowed wing loading under small (< 135 square feet) parachutes - at 135 pounds out the door you're allowed to go from a 150 to 135 at 100 jumps, 135 to 120 at 200, and the next downsize is past 500 jumps.

It's also partly why women are happy at lighter wingloadings. People want a certain control responsiveness.