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GreyLake

Rapid Downsizing

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HA HA HA...you thought I was serious....that is great!

Anyways, since apparently it was only me who hijacked the thread, and no one, I mean no one else is continuing it other than me, I might as well just continue. So....enjoy!

Just kidding....I just made a new thread, feel free to continue there!

Thanks!
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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I picked up to this thread from the other thread you started. I don't like either one but the only saving grace you might end up with is the light load. It might give you a slight margin to save your own ass when you make a larger mistake flying a HP (unforgiving) canopy. That can also bite you just as bad thinking that you are going to be OK . Your own statement of "Hoping" you are going to be OK does not make sense. As much as you protest to the contrary, YOUR statements make me thing about "X" jump wonders and "Naturals" Lots of them are fine , learn and get better but the other side of the coin offers us many many examples of those who have been hurt. Will it happen to you, well like you I hope NOT and that your fine.

The 2 landing videos you showed honestly were NOT that good and really did not give me confidence for you staying out of trouble. The light wind one showed poor landing flare judgment and the others were in higher winds which can make a landing look much better. Your Ground speed is slower then the actual speed through the air so it is easier to stand up.

Basically I do agree that some are people are better then others and are more "Naturals" but that does not mean they should jump ahead of the progression curve. The ability to fly a canopy really is pretty small in my reasoning for dissuading rapid downsizing. 99% + of the time your going to be fine BUT and this is a BIG BUT, the smaller and faster a canopy is, the FASTER IT GOES TO SHIT!! I am yelling that as I don't think it can be shouted loud enough. When a small HP goes bad you have to have the experience to RECOGNIZE and REACT very quickly or you risk having to chop or worse if your lower to the ground. Also Going small is a stupid and very poorly informed choice/excuse to find a better landing. Smaller really does not offer that and again, 99% + you will probably be OK but the posted videos don't show that high level of skill in your possession yet.

Now that I think about it, this response is going to get lost in the mix so no more ramblings from me. I care but at the same time I really don't care at the same time. My concern is less for you as your heels are obviously dug in with your justified position, but more for the sport and the consequences that can ripple out of a mistake you could potentially make given your lack of "overall" experience.....

Scott C.

EDIT ADD TO ADD TO MY POSITION: I have been saying the same basic thing above for years. Here is a similar post I made to a fatality with a 200 jump wonder... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1518931;search_string=99%25;#1518931
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Why does anyone give a shit about this dude. Let him choose his destiny. Don't give the little fella a hard time, just have your cameras handy on each of his jump. Oh, and when he femurs landing off, fuck it. Pick his body up at the end of the day. Shame to waste some jump time on calling an ambulance.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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Why does anyone give a shit about this dude. Let him choose his destiny. Don't give the little fella a hard time, just have your cameras handy on each of his jump. Oh, and when he femurs landing off, fuck it. Pick his body up at the end of the day. Shame to waste some jump time on calling an ambulance.
****
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?



:SWow, nice post. No wonder people don't want to post on these forums. Someone tries to explain what they're up to, and they get unnecessary posts like these, that add nothing except showing that you're not only ignorant, but rude. Cheers man, good job showing new people that this is the place to be if you want help, advice, and opinions. /sarcasm
"and though she be but little, she is fierce."

I'm Jen, pack parachutes and fix planes for a living. Cheers.

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I understand that people are concerned about a rapid and aggressive downsize. It makes sense. I'm concerned too.

But to just make general asshole-ish comments like, "Aw man, can't WAIT to see you femur!" What does that prove? That you can be a dick? Great, wonderful. If that's all you have to contribute, why bother even posting?
"and though she be but little, she is fierce."

I'm Jen, pack parachutes and fix planes for a living. Cheers.

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Why does anyone give a shit about this dude. Let him choose his destiny. Don't give the little fella a hard time, just have your cameras handy on each of his jump. Oh, and when he femurs landing off, fuck it. Pick his body up at the end of the day. Shame to waste some jump time on calling an ambulance.
****
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?



:SWow, nice post. No wonder people don't want to post on these forums. Someone tries to explain what they're up to, and they get unnecessary posts like these, that add nothing except showing that you're not only ignorant, but rude. Cheers man, good job showing new people that this is the place to be if you want help, advice, and opinions. /sarcasm


I tell you what hotshot, i have seen probably most shit people do. This is not new to skydiving. People post on here wanting the same advice over and over. If they don't like the posts then they whine. New people should see statistics and why people with experience post advice. But do they listen.Hell no. So Fuck it, either let the people die or really injur themselves. It is written time after time about downsizing over and over again. So you think this person is going to listen to what people have to say REALLY DO YOU. Maybe with 16 years in the sport and 2500 jumps i am ignorant. Lets see, i have seen 2 full on bounces, 4 canopy wraps, probably about 10 low turn femurs breaks. 2 cypress fires. Oh, and a really nice video of some dude hooking into a pond causing brain damage from not listening to what people had to say.
So, if you really want advice then that is great. Most people who are downsizing this fast don't really want the advice that is neccessary. They just want to hear what they want to hear. Explain how great they are.
So, i may sound like a prick, but i am tired of seeing the same shit over and over again.
Stick around this sport long enough, get the experience and get back to me. Until then enjoy watching the dumbasses kill or severely injure themselve due to not listening
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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But to just make general asshole-ish comments like, "Aw man, can't WAIT to see you femur!" What does that prove?

No, because every video you get of some hotshot femuring is a great learning tool for someone that will listen. When you show people videos of people with the same attitude over and over again it eventually sinks in to some people. really it does. When this one guy hooked in over the pond and really fucked himsel, a few rapid downsizers stepped back and looked at the big picture. These were the same people heading in the same direction. Just a learning tool that is all. Some people listen some don't.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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>"Aw man, can't WAIT to see you femur!" What does that prove?

Doesn't prove a thing. But statements like that sometimes (not often, but sometimes) reach people where reasoned arguments won't.

Next time (hopefully not soon) someone hurts themselves badly or goes in, watch the reactions of people around you. Beyond the pain and the grief, you'll see people reconsidering what they are doing. "Wow, he did X, Y and Z, just like I do - but he was _better_ than me! That could have been me!" And they realize that what they are doing is dangerous, and tone it down.

For some people it doesn't take that. But for some people, showing them pictures of people femuring (and then making it clear that they are probably next) can reach them when "hey, perhaps maybe you shouldn't jump that tiny canopy" won't. Sad but true.

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Why does anyone give a shit about this dude. Let him choose his destiny. Don't give the little fella a hard time, just have your cameras handy on each of his jump. Oh, and when he femurs landing off, fuck it. Pick his body up at the end of the day. Shame to waste some jump time on calling an ambulance.
****
do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?



:SWow, nice post. No wonder people don't want to post on these forums. Someone tries to explain what they're up to, and they get unnecessary posts like these, that add nothing except showing that you're not only ignorant, but rude. Cheers man, good job showing new people that this is the place to be if you want help, advice, and opinions. /sarcasm


I tell you what hotshot, i have seen probably most shit people do. This is not new to skydiving. People post on here wanting the same advice over and over. If they don't like the posts then they whine. New people should see statistics and why people with experience post advice. But do they listen.Hell no. So Fuck it, either let the people die or really injur themselves. It is written time after time about downsizing over and over again. So you think this person is going to listen to what people have to say REALLY DO YOU. Maybe with 16 years in the sport and 2500 jumps i am ignorant. Lets see, i have seen 2 full on bounces, 4 canopy wraps, probably about 10 low turn femurs breaks. 2 cypress fires. Oh, and a really nice video of some dude hooking into a pond causing brain damage from not listening to what people had to say.
So, if you really want advice then that is great. Most people who are downsizing this fast don't really want the advice that is neccessary. They just want to hear what they want to hear. Explain how great they are.
So, i may sound like a prick, but i am tired of seeing the same shit over and over again.
Stick around this sport long enough, get the experience and get back to me. Until then enjoy watching the dumbasses kill or severely injure themselve due to not listening


See, the hotshot comment? What was the point of that? I didn't say anything that you could construe into being a hotshot remark. I said you were being rude, the comment was completely unnecessary, and I was right. You didn't contribute anything to the thread at all. I just don't get why some people have to be assholes for the sake of being assholes.

Dude, understand, I think he's being aggressive too, and I have a vested interest in it! I don't want to see him hurt. All I said, was that it's your ass. If you and your instructors think it's okay, then whatever man, you are going to be the one to pay any consequences, not them. He accepts that, so be it. He's a big boy, and he's entitled to make his own choices. He's taking the bigger risk, and as long as he accepts that, that's it. I don't have to resort to personal attacks. It just makes you seem small. Sorry dude, it's just not necessary. It's not exactly a professional thing to say. I don't care how experienced you are, what gives you the right to be an out and out jerk?
"and though she be but little, she is fierce."

I'm Jen, pack parachutes and fix planes for a living. Cheers.

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>"Aw man, can't WAIT to see you femur!" What does that prove?

Doesn't prove a thing. But statements like that sometimes (not often, but sometimes) reach people where reasoned arguments won't.

Next time (hopefully not soon) someone hurts themselves badly or goes in, watch the reactions of people around you. Beyond the pain and the grief, you'll see people reconsidering what they are doing. "Wow, he did X, Y and Z, just like I do - but he was _better_ than me! That could have been me!" And they realize that what they are doing is dangerous, and tone it down.

For some people it doesn't take that. But for some people, showing them pictures of people femuring (and then making it clear that they are probably next) can reach them when "hey, perhaps maybe you shouldn't jump that tiny canopy" won't. Sad but true.



I understand that sometimes that's what it takes to make people see. But when someone's just posting smartass remarks, without any attempt to inform or educate, it just does nothing.

And I'm sure I sound like a hotshot here, with my 25 jumps and all. I'm a new jumper, not new to the DZ... I spent 6 months packing before I ever jumped, and saw lots of scary shit. Rest assured, I'll be staying on a big parachute for awhile. You can quote me on that. Hell, I still jump a 290, and while I would like to see sub-200, I'm in no rush. I just don't like the big canopy because it likes to collapse on me when I hit turbulence. I'm loading it at 0.3, which isn't awesome. But hey, you won't find me on a 107, 120, 135, or 150 anytime soon. I still have too much to learn on the big ones.
"and though she be but little, she is fierce."

I'm Jen, pack parachutes and fix planes for a living. Cheers.

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ok well if i sounded a jerk i apologise. But at the end of the day, his decissions can fuck up a lot of other peoples lives. We have to deal with.

Let me ask you this. How many bodies have you seen splattered on the ground due to a bad hook turn.

How many police reports have you filled in due to someone elses negligence. How many good friends have you visited in the hospital due to bad judgement.

How many family memebers have you hugged due to someone elses mistake.

The list goes on trust me. It fucking sucks really bad.
So, how many of these incidents could be avioded if that person listened to advice they were given from the start. Not saying this guy is heading that way but he is definately on the right path. So, really, when they make poor decisions it effects us all. So if i seem a prick excuse me. Some of us have tried the nice approach with some of our ex fellow jumpers. Things like a shattered skull kinda stick in your brain. Crying widows or family members also stick in your brain
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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then whatever man, you are going to be the one to pay any consequences, not them. He accepts that, so be it. He's a big boy, and he's entitled to make his own choices.

Quote



Not entirely true, conservative jumpers do get killed by aggressive jumpers.

Maybe that's what has some of the posters fired up in this thread, we know we CAN suffer because of someone else's choices.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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> But when someone's just posting smartass remarks, without any
> attempt to inform or educate, it just does nothing.

Yeah, that's a fine line. I've been "the jerk" "the canopy nazi" "the scaremonger" and that doesn't work with a lot of people. I've also been "the nice guy" which doesn't work with other sorts of people. Finding that balance is tough if you want to reach someone. And often reaching them is important, because we've seen the consequences when you don't.

If it takes being called a smartass, I'll take it - as long as whatever I'm doing is reaching them.

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, well if you really want advice then. Use billvons chart. Smaller canopies are cool they are fast and really fun to fly. But when shit goes wrong it goes wrong really quick. I would fly a 1.1-.1.3 wingloading right now. You will learn so much more on a canopy that size than you will ever on a higher wing loading at your experience. Take it slow. I know its great to be on a plane saying that you have a huge wingloading and you can swoop but enjoy the learning of the progression. Over time you will become a great pilot. I have upsized a few times because i just was not ready for that canopy. Granted, i flew the velo 111 landed the canopy fine but to be honest it shit me up. With my jump numbers i wasn't ready for that canopy. I like to spend a few hundred jumps each canopy. Get the feeling.
And you know what, you will get idiots at the dz saying you should get a smaller canopy because its cool. Just ignore them. 10-15 years from now you can post how you were glad you took your time in the canopy progression. So much can happen quicker. No matter how good you are, shit will really happen quicker.
Good luck on any advice. No-one wants to see you injured or dead. But you are definately increasing the risk by going this route.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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Hey Skinny,

Based on your comment:

Quote

I would fly a 1.1-.1.3 wingloading right now. You will learn so much more on a canopy that size than you will ever on a higher wing loading at your experience.



It seems to me that you think I'm loading it more than that? I weigh 115 lbs, about 135 EXIT weight. That gives me a loading of 1.28ish, say 1.3. I;m not at all saying this makes it any better, but I know guys with sub-200 jumps loading canopies at 1.6-1.8 elliptical and non-elliptical.

I don't jump it because it's cooler, I jump it because it was my conscious decision to do so. I know a bunch of people have made comments about me wanting a "better" flare. They assumed I was having trouble landing the 135, which I was not. I just wanted a better flare than a 7 cell provided. After alot of research and asking around the DZ, the Cobalt was delivered to me.

Oh, and seriously, thank you for the calm, accurate response.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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Just take it slow, i have never seen you fly. All we are saying is ignore those sub 200 jumpers. Whatever wingloading they are jumping. At the end of the day its your body. I personally have seen too much shit go wrong really fast that could of been avoidable. Learn everything you can on your current wingloading. I dont have the link to billvons chart but i am sure he can post it. Learn from the smart people at your dz. If your ever at the farm i will show you videos of people under canopise they never should of been.One is slightly brain damaged right now.

Noone on here is attacking you, just that we have seen so many people fucked up due to rapid downsizing. Good luck and don't take anything personal ok. Be a better man than the idiots flying canopies they have no business being on. Sit back and learn. Ok off to bed. Good luck and take it slow. Time is your friend:)

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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Problem is, I think, people don't often browse the incident reports.

And that nonetheless seems like a hefty downsize to me, but I suppose it depends on how long you hadn't jumped the smaller canopy (170). I mean, if you started on a 170, were at a 230 for three years, and then went to the 150--not so wise. Had you been at a 230 for three weeks, maybe then. Even then, I'd advise people to jump a couple in-betweens first--in your case at the very least the 170--just to be on the safe side. And regardless of wingloading, because it seems to me a dramatic difference equals unfamiliarity, less knowing what to expect, or not to expect.

I have to admit, though: it may be that I tend to be over-cautious in certain regards, to the extent that I've held myself back a bit. Still, I'd rather err on this side than the other.
Let's go to candy mountain.

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Swooping Star
With apologies to "Bad Company"
LP

Johnny was a schoolboy when he got his first X-braced square,
Velo '89 I think it was, hook-turned without a care.
Got himself a grounding, used to hobble home every night
But he wore a real cool outfit,
Thought "everythings allright", don't you know?"

Don't you know, yeah yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, don't you know.
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
And all the vleis will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are.


Johnny told his CI, "Hey, Dickhead, I'm goin' away.
I'm gonna hit the Swoop circuit, gonna be a big star someday," Yeah.
CI kicked him out the door, tossed his rig in the sand.
"Don't come back again, from now on you are banned!"

Don't you know, yeah yeah,
Don't you know that It's quite Bizzare?
Don't you know, don't you know.
That you think you are a Swooping
star,
Your leg is just one long scar
long,
As long as I are.

Johnny went to DeLand , hooked low on jump number one
Suddenly he's on the bench, his dreams of glory are gone
Watching the loads go by, surprised they fired his ass,
Johnny looked around him and said, "Don't they know I have talent and class?"

Don't you know, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, oh,yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, yeah,
And all the vleis will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are, a Swooping Star
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, now
And all the vleis will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are

Johnny died one day, in a DZ's flower bed,
Low toggle turn, hit the ground with his head
Johnny missed the swoop pond, he thought he'd hooked real fine,
If you listen to the wind you can still hear him whine

Oh oh oh
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you know, yeah, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you know, don't you know, oh, yeah, you are,
Yeah, a Swooping star, yeah, oh
Oh oh oh oh......
Don't you, don't you know
I am a Swooping star,
Don't you don't you know......

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Just for people's information. I went through the Incidents forum and just wrote down incidents from this year which involved landing issues (not malfunctions or anything else like that.) Note that this probably has less than 1% of injuries from canopy issues.... This is just something to think about for all the people who think it couldn't happen to them.

Spain 10/27/07 Low Turn (not swoop) 200-300 jumps Canopy Unknown Helicopter - Broken
Hip

South Africa 10/28/07 Lost Rear Riser on Swoop Velocity 90 5310 jumps Fatality

Czechia 9/30/07 400 jumps, low turn Fatality Xfire 115

Netherlands 10/13/07 Low turn, triple broken leg. 150ish canopy. Unknown jumps

South Africa 9/29/07 Overshot landing, badly broken ankle Unknown jumps/canopy

New Zealand 10/2/07 Bad landing Leg/Pelvis injuries Unknown jumps/canopy

Massachusetts 9/23/07 Bad landing Critical cndition 1000 jumps/unknown canopy

Massachusetts 8/12/07 Bad landing Broken Pelvis/Back injuries <200 jumps

Germany 9/16/07 Low turn (Not swoop) Broken Pelvis 500 jumps, 1.3

Australia 9/16/07 No flare AFF student Broken legs

California 9/15/07 Low turn bruised tailbown 50 jumps unknown canopy

Australia 9/8/07 Low turn broken wrist/leg Novice Unknown canopy

Minnesota 8/10/07 High flare Compression Fracture L1 AFF jump

Italy 8/26/07 Off landing, hit pole 500 jumps in 10 years, 1.3 WL

UK 8/19/07 Demo jump Unknown Info

FL 8/12/07 Downwind landing with turn Broken Femur

Russia 8/9/07 Hook Turn 1700 jumps Stilletto 120

Colorado 7/1/07 Broken legs /ankles Turning during landing with broken brake line 190 sq ft

Australia 7/28/07 Broken femur - compound downwind landing new parachute

Ohio 7/25/07 Broken femurs - downwind landing in cornfield 1.0 wingloading

Georgia 5/23/07 Serious Injuries Off landing

North Carolina 6/16/07 Broken Femur L4 fracture Low turn (not swoop) AFF student Navigator 260

Australia 7/8/07 Swoop Extremely serious Injuries Low hook turn (swoop)

Russia 7/2/07 Low turn on demo Cobalt 120

Ukraine 7/1/07 Double fatality Canopy collision at 100 feet 69 jumps, Triathlon 175 (1.17) 132
jumps Sabre 150 (1.2)

Skydive San Diego 6/9/07 Multiple broken bones Swooper hit building 270 turn 740 jumps in 11 years

Massachusetts 6/23/07 Broken Ankle Roof landing

Italy 6/17/07 Landed on road, hit by car AFF student

Maine 5/26/07 Multiple injuries Hit tree landed on road 1200 jumps

UK 6/1/07 Broken Back Landed with rear risers Katana 97 6000 jumps

Russia 6/10/07 One fatality One seriously injured Canopy Collision on landing Injured jumper had
only 20 jumps on swoop canopy.

UK 5/6/07 Demo injury Low 120 degree turn

Texas 6/3/07 Broken Femur Low turn AFF student Solo 230 .7

Belgium 6/5/07 Fatality Low turn No flare Vengeance 107 2000 jumps

Canada 5/18/07 Shoulder injury Offlanding on reserve


Florida 5/20/07 Fatality Low hook turn during competition

Ohio 5/20/07 Broken Back avoiding child Demo jump

Spain 5/19/07 Fatality Low turn into water 400 jumps Safire2 129 1.4

Ohio 4/28/07 Fatality Low non-swoop turn 450 1.45 loading

Mexico 5/5/07 Low turn Hit seawall Velocity 84 720 degree swoop turn 1400 jumps

South Africa 5/12/07 Broken femur/pelvis 270 swoop 1.77 120sq ft canopy 4000 jumps

Germany 4/22/07 Fatality Demo jump, low turn, hit wall Spark 150/170 500 jumps

Wisconsin 5/10/07 Fatality Low hook turn 500 jumps 190 main

California 3/24/07 Fracture of T-8 Low flare AFF L1

Florida 4/22/07 Broken Pelvis Hit obstacle AFF student

Spain 4/6/07 Fatality Low turn, hit obstacle 500 jumps

Georgia 3/17/07 Double fatality - one 270 swooped and took out another. Both 5000+ jumps

Florida 3/26/07 Fatality - low swoop turn very experienced

Brazil 1/25/07 Fatality - Sposed to land on beach, low turn hit wall. 200 jumps Sabre 150

Arizona 3/9/07 Double Fatality - Canopy collision on landing - novices, light wing-loadings

Belize 2/11/07 Serious Injuries - 90 degree turn into power line Katana 120

Canada 1/28/07 Broken femur, collarbone, vertabrae. 1000 jumps, swoop turn.


Arkansas 4/28/07 Injured Demo Stadium Jump

New Zealand 2/3/07 Fatality - Swoop landing VX 87

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I do know that the downsize was agressive, I do know that I've increased my risk of injury. I know I'm intelligent, and I also think I'm a fairly good pilot.



Do a search on "Ted Nelson". You sound just like him. He told a lot of folks how good he was. He may become a great swooper, but he died before that happened.

Kevin Keenan
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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