one or two hands?

[erdnarob 1]

A friend of mine is writing a first jump course manual. I did the review and we still have to decide which method to use at our DZ concerning the cut away for the students in case they have to do one.

We can suppose in all cases that the student Identify, Decide and Does the action...and when doing the action he/she looks, grab and pull. Student equipement has a RSL installed. The student also throws away the handles after pulling them. The left hand thumb is always inside the reserve handle (if a metal handle is used) when pulling it.

What do you think would be the best for the student (the most efficient method in order to have a clean cut away).
1) grabbing first the cut away handle with two hands, pull, when feeling free from the main, grab the reserve handle with two hands and pull or;
2) grab both handles at the same time (cut away handle with right hand and reserve handle with left hand) then pull the cut away handle first and when feeling free from the main pull the reserve handle or;
3) grab the cut away handle with right hand then pull, when feeling free from the main, grab the reserve handle with left hand then pull.

Lets be serious. After 6 cut aways I have personally a preference but I would like to hear from you: students, instructors, jump masters... and more generally any jumpers interested.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[popsjumper 2]

Personally, I prefer the two-handed method for students.

You neglected to mention one very, very important part of both procedures...LOOK first.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

I think it is more likely that a student will pull out of sequence using the one hand per handle method.

I think it is less likely that a student will cut away with both hands and then two things will happen: one the rsl will fail to operate correctly, and the student will also be unable to find the reserve handle.

Maybe I am wrong so I am eager to hear some senior instructors opinions!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[AllisonH 0]

Having seen the following:

1) Experienced jumper friend practicing EP's before a repack unable to pull pillow reserve handle with 1 hand, used 2 hands on second attempt and pulled it

2) Student under spinning mal spend about 1000 feet longer than I would have liked trying to pull cutaway handle with 2 hands (Edit to add: the poster after me makes an excellent point about peeling before pulling - this particular student, however, had peeled and gotten the handle free from the velcro and still had a difficult cutaway.)

I teach my students to use 2 hands. When they are more experienced they are welcome to explore the pro's and con's of each and decide which is best for their circumstances.

[DanG 1]

Either way, teach them to peel before they pull. I think a lot of the hard pulls people describe are due to velcro and sandwiching between MLW webbing.

We teach two hands on each. I think it makes an out-of-sequence pull highly unlikely, and is still fast enough to give the student time to deal with emergencies.

- Dan G

[ufk22 32]

This isn't about what YOU prefer. You have over 2000 jumps. This is about students.
Keep It Simple.
LOOK, then pull with both hands.
And don't get me started about the people who teach students "This is what we teach, BUT THIS IS HOW I DO IT."

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[davelepka 4]

I was taught the following -

Look - at the cutaway

Grab - the cutaway with two hands

Look - at the reserve, keep your eye on it

Pull - the cutaway with both hands

Pull - the reserve with both hands

It seems like a good procedure. It uses the two handed pull for proper sequence, and has you looking at the reserve before you cutaway so you know where you're going.

I suppose there are a dozen different ways to teach cutaways, and most of them would work just fine.

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

I was taught the following -

Look - at the cutaway

Grab - the cutaway with two hands

Look - at the reserve, keep your eye on it

Pull - the cutaway with both hands

Pull - the reserve with both hands

It seems like a good procedure. It uses the two handed pull for proper sequence, and has you looking at the reserve before you cutaway so you know where you're going.

I suppose there are a dozen different ways to teach cutaways, and most of them would work just fine.

I second this second (or is it thirded?). I agree with the sequence statement whole heartedly.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[NealFitz 0]

i was taught the following and even though i havent experienced a cutaway the method seems to work at our DZ anyway

Look- Look at the handles

Locate- Get right hand on cutaway pad and left hand on reserve handle with index finger and thumb surronding handle

Cut- peel away cutaway pad

Away- punch the cutaway pad

Reserve- Pull the reserve handle

Arch- Arch :P

When i did my training we had 16 hanging harnesses and we would all do it in Sync til it was drilled into us

Dudeist Skydiver #170
You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need one to skydive again

[Reginald 0]

Quote

What do you think would be the best for the student (the most efficient method in order to have a clean cut away).
1) grabbing first the cut away handle with two hands, pull, when feeling free from the main, grab the reserve handle with two hands and pull or;
2) grab both handles at the same time (cut away handle with right hand and reserve handle with left hand) then pull the cut away handle first and when feeling free from the main pull the reserve handle or;
3) grab the cut away handle with right hand then pull, when feeling free from the main, grab the reserve handle with left hand then pull.

1 and 2 (properly defined with peel, etc.) are both acceptable and the debates on the two are endless. # 3 is NEVER acceptable.

At my DZ we teach #2. Actually we teach (look red, grab red, look silver, grab silver, peel, punch, arch, peel, punch arch) And personally, I emphasis the PEEL! I make it very clear the Velcro is stronger than they are unless they peel it.

The advantage of #2 is that once they cut away and the reserve handle shifts they already have it under control and don’t have to spend valuable time looking for it. There are a number of fatalities where people cut away and never deployed a reserve, including some VERY experienced skydivers. Locating the silver handle after a cutaway is not a given. And it is never acceptable to rely on the RSL. The trade off with #1 is that a person must be able to pull the red handle with one hand (hence the emphasis on “peel”) and also avoid an out of sequence pull. These are manageable with proper training and in my personal opinion are lesser risks than not being able to find the silver handle after a cutaway.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks ufk22, when I mentioned I have a preference it was as an instructor and thinking of the student (I have also a personal preference for myself). A lot of people mentioned their prefer two hands. Isn't also a way for the student to likely do a barrel roll to the right? I know it's difficult to witness an actual case but maybe you can have a little idea when using a suspended harness??? Does anybody have comments about how the sudent does when using both hands while on a suspended harness. Tendency to roll sideway or else. My research here is to get as much feedback as possible so my friend and I can take a sound decision.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Thanks ufk22, when I mentioned I have a preference it was as an instructor and thinking of the student (I have also a personal preference for myself). A lot of people mentioned their prefer two hands. Isn't also a way for the student to likely do a barrel roll to the right? I know it's difficult to witness an actual case but maybe you can have a little idea when using a suspended harness??? Does anybody have comments about how the sudent does when using both hands while on a suspended harness. Tendency to roll sideway or else. My research here is to get as much feedback as possible so my friend and I can take a sound decision.

I think the possiblity of out of sequence procedures using one hand on each handle is a far worse case then perhaps going unstable when using two hands. After all, most likely if they are going to cutway they will already be under canopy and therefore a barrel roll is unlikely.

[Deci 0]

So I'm the person mentionned writing the manual.

We're in Canada - and CSPA has 3 different methods approved for teaching EPs to students.

This manual is a reference manual that students take home. From a liability perspective, I think I'm going to stick to what my country's parachuting association approves.

I'd be curious as to what EP teaching methods are approved in other countries associations. I know France (and one of the 3 CSPA approved methods) has the one I'm considering including in the manual:

Look Cutaway
Reach Cutaway (2 hands)
Look Reserve
(Peel) Pull Cutaway (2 hands)
Reach Reserve (2 hands)
Pull Reserve

Anyone from the US, Australia, or any other country can answer what's approved in their country?

CSPA D-1046 TI Coach2 RiggerA JM SSI SSE GCI EJR Canadian 102-way record holder
bard.ca

[skinnay 0]

i got yelled at right before my aff2 when showing my ep's with one hand on each. we were taught to not only have both hands on the cutaway but also clear the cable with your left hand in a sweeping motion. this was explained to me that since student rigs are not custom fit, the cutaway cable might be longer than desirable and might not completely release with one arm's length pull.

I could only assume there was an incident where this had happened and spent a fair amount of time burning this motion into my head.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Look Cutaway
Reach Cutaway (2 hands)
Look Reserve
(Peel) Pull Cutaway (2 hands)
Reach Reserve (2 hands)
Pull Reserve

Quote

This is what I was taught.
Look
Reach
Look
Pull
Reach
Pull

• Quote

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[mark 102]

Quote

i got yelled at right before my aff2 when showing my ep's with one hand on each. we were taught to not only have both hands on the cutaway but also clear the cable with your left hand in a sweeping motion. this was explained to me that since student rigs are not custom fit, the cutaway cable might be longer than desirable and might not completely release with one arm's length pull.

I could only assume there was an incident where this had happened and spent a fair amount of time burning this motion into my head.

I don't doubt that's what you were taught, and I don't doubt that it's pretty much nonsense. The amount of cable you have to pull for release is not more than about 7 inches.

Mark

[erdnarob 1]

BTW I did it <<...Decide and Does the action...and when doing the action he/she looks, grab and pull...>> but you could have missed it. I didn't want to repeat it that 3 x 2 times since the emphasis here is on one or two hands being used. Thanks.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[nomal2day 0]

I was taught:

Look, Grab
Look, Grab
Peel, Punch
Peel, Punch
Arch.

It works well for me. But then probably any logical and practical sequence would, as long as I practised it enough.

I say and mime it like a mantra at least a few times on every jump, and I feel I am proficient enough to do it unhurriedly enough and in the correct sequence in an emergency. Of course, the real test will be doing it the same way under 4g loading with the world spinning wildly outside and the jump going to hell in a handbasket!!!

'To fly is heaven, to freefall is divine'

'You only need 2 tools. WD40 for when it doesn't move but should, and duct tape for when it moves but shouldn't'

[billvon 2,380]

>I don't doubt that's what you were taught, and I don't doubt that it's
>pretty much nonsense.

Actually, it can sometimes be an issue. Here's the problem situation:

1) Low drag mal, like a lazy toss/out of sequence deployment/baglock.

2) Strong velcro.

3) Ill fitting rig.

4) Mal that stands the jumper up, thus removing the normal loading from the harness caused by the arch.

The jumper comes in and pulls the cutaway handle. Initially she* just pulls the webbing away from her chest as the main lift web 'follows' her pull. She gets it about 6" out before she separates the cutaway handle. Now she's got it out another 6", which is (for her) full arm extension. That's enough to cut away one riser. Load on the harness goes down and she feels like she's dropping, which tells her that she has cut away.

Now she pulls the reserve handle, and entanglement ensues.

I deal with this by telling students "make sure you see the handle flying away from you; that way you know it has been pulled."

(* - I used 'she' because this is most often an issue on smaller woman jumpers.)

[mark 102]

Quote

The jumper comes in and pulls the cutaway handle. Initially she* just pulls the webbing away from her chest as the main lift web 'follows' her pull. She gets it about 6" out before she separates the cutaway handle. Now she's got it out another 6", which is (for her) full arm extension. That's enough to cut away one riser. Load on the harness goes down and she feels like she's dropping, which tells her that she has cut away.

Now she pulls the reserve handle, and entanglement ensues.

Maybe I'm missing something here. After the cutaway pillow separates from the harness velcro, don't you get the 6" of harness deformation back?

Mark

[billvon 2,380]

>After the cutaway pillow separates from the harness velcro, don't you
>get the 6" of harness deformation back?

Not if the harness is (effectively) unloaded.

Try the following. Put on a student rig, adjusted to you. Now hunch forward as if you're looking at your bellybutton. See how much slack there is in the harness. That's extraction distance that you won't "get back." (and of course it's worse for people who fit the harness poorly.)

As a real world example, I once noticed (after a jump) a guy with a rubber band around his reserve handle. It was there, he stated, to prevent it from coming loose on his motorcycle, but it was his opinion that if he needed it he could have broken the rubber band. We were somewhat incredulous, and to 'prove' it he started pulling on it. Even at full arm extension he could not get it much out of the pocket; the harness was just 'following' him since he was sitting, it was a big harness and it was unloaded. (Needless to say the rubber band wasn't helping matters, but he was still moving the harness a remarkable amount.)

[gearless_chris 1]

You might not in a low drag mal where you aren't putting any weight in the legstraps. I think clearing the cables is very important, especially with an RSL. That 2 inch difference in length could make it much easier to release one riser, drop the cutaway handle, then deploy the reserve manually before releasing the other riser. I believe there was an incident where that happened, and the girl lived.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[ufk22 32]

That's why the look is so important. Locate the cutaway handle/pillow, reach in, grab and pull in one motion, then clear the cables. Looking and getting one hand on each handle takes longer, and the longer the hands are in, the more likely for the student to barrel roll or go head down/partial front loop.
Realistically, the RSL will get the reserve out before the student can find the other handle and pull it. I don't talk about that to the student, just to continue the procedure (look at the deployment handle, then reach and pull).
The idea is to get the student to see the handle while still in an arch, then to spend as little time as possible getting the cutaway handle pulled.
And yeah, I know you can't "rely" on the RSL, but it's there and it will work most of the time.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[erdnarob 1]

Agree 100% with you, the LOOK is the main key. If they look they will pull. If they don't look they will pull on anything, jumpsuit, harness, chest strap.... and hopefuly the reserve handle.
When I trained student on a suspended harness, this point is my main concern and I really make an effort to check if the student actually looks on his handles.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mr_music11 0]

IMHO/low jump numbers and no cut aways YET! I was taught..
Look @cutaway
pull cutaway with 2hands
look @ reserve
pull reserve with 2hands
arch
soo.. look and pull with both hands on both handles to avoid the mis sequence... its what I practice b4 each jump

If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.