skittles_of_SDC 0 #76 March 30, 2009 I was told by both my physical therapist and orthopedic surgeon that a PLF may have saved my ankle. They had no way to say for sure but because of the way it was fractured they thought hitting with both legs together may have made a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #77 March 30, 2009 The question is the same kind that asking if we need to know and use the crash position in a perfectly good airplane. Yes we need to teach PLF since in many occasions that method can save life: EG : landing with a reserve with medium or strong wind, landing with a biplane (no flare), landing with a partially deployed canopy, landing with a canopy with several broken lines, landing with a big tear going from nose to tail...is it enough???Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #78 March 30, 2009 Quote I have a friend who is in the hospital today with two compressed vertebrae in his lower back, a broken rib and some very bruised heels after a brain fart landing error ... a PLF might have saved him some or all of those injuries. I am sure that if I would have plf'd properly I wouldn't have torn the knee up .... which put me out for the season last year -have i learned a lesson - yes; have i been humbled - yes....and I fly a pretty docile canopy with a light wingloading.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #79 March 30, 2009 The army has a swing land trainer, that they use to teach PLF's. You are suspended by a block and tackle, and a Black Hat instructor held the end of the rope. You stepped off of about a six foot foot platform and swung back and forth a couple times before your instructor let you loose into the ground. Usually there was a fair amount of speed built up, (comparable to a wind jump). You did this forward, side-ways, and backwards until you could do a PLF in every direction. After three weeks of practicing PLF's, you got pretty good at them. In the 70's we would spend an hour or so practicing PLF's with first jump skydivers. This just wasn't enough practice. There were still a lot of broken legs, ankles, etc. because of that. I've forgotten all the times that a good PLF saved me back in the 70's. But even today, they are worth practicing. I know I wouldn't have limped away from the last low turn I made a few years ago, without doing a good PLF. It literally ripped the booty loose from my jump suit, on impact.....I'm getting too old for this shit! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #80 March 30, 2009 Did one yesterday that saved both of my ankles after planing out high.What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KermieCorleone 0 #81 April 2, 2009 I just started AFF and I had to do 2 PLFs yesterday since my dumbass flared WAY too high, I think if I hadnt I would have probably broken something.- Neil Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wishnstar611 0 #82 April 2, 2009 I don't think they're stressed enough! My first static line (4th jump, previous 3 were tandems) I neglected to PLF and ended up spraining my wrist and ankle. I practiced my PLFs in class but freaked out on landing so I probably could have used more practice. If you ever have taken Luigi Cani's canopy course one of the first thing he does is demonstrate a proper PLF and make the whole class do them....if an expert canopy pilot is teaching PLFs to experienced jumpers, it just seems like PLFs aren't something to just skim over. My opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markh1 0 #83 May 24, 2009 My last jump, #4, was on a no-wind day, and the ground came up way too fast. I did not flair in time. The only thing that saved my knees and legs was the PLF, legs together, knees bent and hands at the body. My calves compressed which is costing me 6-weeks of rehab, but it could have been a lot worse. I jump tomorrow!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #84 May 25, 2009 I have had a few high-speed wipeouts while downhill skiing (the league of skiing straight-down steep portions of double-black diamond slope) rolling with no injury, and it seems to have carried over when I tripped over a piece of caked mud during the May 2008 perris big way camps, during what I remember was a very hot and humid semi-turbulent zero-winder with weaker-than-expected flare - I was still at the high speed portion of my planeout, almost too fast to run out, but planeout too low. I just rolled and got lots of dirt on me. Landed rolling, with a diagonal roll across my back as well. I never was taught any PLF's during AFF/PFF, but I think there are 3 or 4 landings that I could have gotten hurt, possibly seriously, if I didn't 'roll' in some kind of manner. Another particularly memorable roll was an out landing in a fenced-in forrest-surrounded cow pasture north of Spaceland south of Burns road (thankfully, missed all the cowpies, but parachute floated down in half-meter high thorny bush, so took 5 minutes carefully peeling off all the nylon without ripping!) All the instances where I rolled, had considerable horizontal velocity, so more like 'parachute landing rolls' rather than 'parachute landing falls'. Though I daresay I'm more deficient at PLF's than PLR's, due to less experience of high-vertical-velocity low-horizontal-velocity events in my lifetime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #85 May 25, 2009 Quote>>the principles of how to protect your body in a fall remain the same and apply to parachuting or something like gymnastics or martial arts. Not true and here is why: Unlike every other fall students have experienced in their life, in this case they will be "suspended" and therefore restrained. Dissipating your energy must come from the feet "upward" in a coordinated fashion while the canopy slowly releases its hold on you. The "natural" tendency is to lead with your shoulder and that is simply not possible in a PLF. This distinction needs to be made very clear to students when teaching them PLFs. After 20 odd years of Judo, it's pretty difficult for me to turn off that training and do a PLF instead. I can assure you the parachute harness doesn't restrain you anything like enough to stop you doing a martial arts type fall. I think there are better methods to contol a fall than a PLF but that's not something you can be taught in 25 minutes on a FJC. PLFs are still the best bang for the buck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #86 May 26, 2009 >>After 20 odd years of Judo, it's pretty difficult for me to turn off that training and do a PLF instead. I can assure you the parachute harness doesn't restrain you anything like enough to stop you doing a martial arts type fall. ---------------------------------------------------------- Excellent. Then your falling skills on a tatami or elsewhere, exceed my own. Can you speak to your experience landing a parachute (such as a round or malfunctioned square) where the vertical trajectory is much greater than the forward speed? I guess the visual I was trying to convey is more like what we see from a lawn dart, than the typical landing we all experience these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #87 May 29, 2009 Quote After 20 odd years of Judo, it's pretty difficult for me to turn off that training and do a PLF instead. I can assure you the parachute harness doesn't restrain you anything like enough to stop you doing a martial arts type fall. Just wondering ... I have no experience with martial arts falls ... can you explain what, if anything, they have in common with a PLF? Does sliding on your tailbone for 150 feet have anything to do with a martial arts fall? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #88 May 29, 2009 Uh, is definitely still necessary. a. If you aren't sure you are going to be able to stand this landing up, and you don't have 2000 jumps to trust in yourself to do so. You're coming in a little too fast, maybe you'll just PLF just in case. b. You flare too high (maybe 20 ft) and are going to drop straight down. You had better PLF. Try to stand that one up and you'll break both your legs. I'm sure there are 100 other scenarios.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #89 May 29, 2009 Quote Just wondering ... I have no experience with martial arts falls ... can you explain what, if anything, they have in common with a PLF? I've never been to a martial arts club where they taught anything even remotely like a PLF. In martial arts (my perspective is mainly Judo), you fall at pretty much every orientation there is and there are different techniques for each. The idea is to get comfortable with falling and learn how to deal with it without injuring yourself. In competition, you don't get a choice which way your opponent throws you so you need to be good at all of them. The idea in Judo is not to land on your back because that is how you lose the fight. So the skill (assuming you have learned to fall at any orientation without breaking yourself) is in being able to control the fall, turning one fall orientation into a lower scoring orientation in the split second between being thrown and your back hitting the floor. Maybe those same skills could be useful during a botched parachute landing to reduce the risk of injury? For feet first vertical decents like landing a round or a mal, I reckon a PLF is a pretty good starting point and may well be the only option (but if I had to land a round or a mal with any regularity, I'd be looking for some new gear asap). However, the majority of botched parachute landings have a considerable horizontal speed component, in which case you set up for the PLF you haven't done since your FJC and it turns into a faceplant before you even know what happened. A good martial artist should have a more complete set of skills to deal with that. I'm not saying to replace teaching PLFs in a FJC with anything else, that's impractical and would probably make things more dangerous. PLFs are definately still the best bang for the buck. What I am saying is that a PLF is but one of many falling techniques and to dismiss any of them out of hand would be a bit stupid. Quote Does sliding on your tailbone for 150 feet have anything to do with a martial arts fall? If that's the way you end up getting thrown, then yes but I wouldn't want to fight someone capable of doing it to me. But would you PLF such a landing or slide it in on your side? I'll take the slide thanks. Disclaimer: I urge everyone to take all this with how ever many grains of salt you need. It's just my opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inspired 0 #90 May 29, 2009 I would think Parkour or Free Running would be better sports to learn from than any martial arts. Unless I'm mistaken, they teach PLF as one way to land from a fall. They also teach other types of landings too though, depending on the circumstances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #91 May 29, 2009 Quote Does sliding on your tailbone for 150 feet have anything to do with a martial arts fall? And the follow up is, does sliding 150' on your tailbone (or calf/thigh/buttock) have anything to do with a PLF? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #92 May 29, 2009 While the "classic" version of a PLF may not be relevant, the concept certainly is. Dissipate the energy of your impact slowly, not suddenly. Or as I like to say, "Don't stop too fast, and you'll be fine" "Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #93 May 30, 2009 how bout doing a PLF on a military round drop, hammering into the ground anyway, and THEN getting drug by ur parachute 150ft across the DZ cause ur leg is stuck in ur opposite riser and u cant reach the canopy release anymore.....its kind of a combo of both. In all honesty a PLF has saved my bacon a few times in my earlier jumps on square canopys. bad to no flare right into a PLF, walked away with no injuries. I think PLF or at least a variation that transfers the impact over ur entire body as oppsed to just ur feet are quite nessisarry as to prevent injury for not just low number jumpers (they are botching most of the landings) but also high number jumpers coming in at high speedsThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #94 May 30, 2009 Quote While the "classic" version of a PLF may not be relevant, the concept certainly is. Oh, you remember the old days. I've said it in the forums before and I'll say it again. Low forward speed, high rate of descent= PLF High forward speed, low rate of descent = Slide High forward speed, high rate of descent = you're fucked. (but I PLF'd anyway) No, I'm not joking about any of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #95 May 30, 2009 Quote Low forward speed, high rate of descent= PLF High forward speed, low rate of descent = Slide High forward speed, high rate of descent = you're fucked. (but I PLF'd anyway) +1The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coreyangel 0 #96 June 1, 2009 Quote I've been in the sport 30 years and jump a Sabre 170, a Triathlone 190, a PD 260, and a Lightning 193. I don't give a rats ass what anybody thinks about what I jump. I'm to old, fat and crippled to want to jump a canopy that lands at freefall speeds. Ok, I came into this discussion late and I must admit, I haven't read all the replies. I just want to say a couple of things> 1. Good topic. I understand you were just trying to start an open discussion. 2. I am one of those "old guys" also. I too jump a Triathalon 190. Even with good landings I do a PLF. Sounds weird, I know, but I had an ankle rebuilt while I was in the Marine Corps and I have protected it so much and for so long, I just do a PLF to protect it. As for me, I'm glad they taught me a proper PLF.Learn from others' mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all yourself. POPS 10672 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #97 June 1, 2009 Quote Quote While the "classic" version of a PLF may not be relevant, the concept certainly is. Oh, you remember the old days. I've said it in the forums before and I'll say it again. Low forward speed, high rate of descent= PLF High forward speed, low rate of descent = Slide High forward speed, high rate of descent = you're fucked. (but I PLF'd anyway) No, I'm not joking about any of that. Same mantra I was taught. A PLF saved my ass this weekend. A slide worked great in a downwinder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #98 June 1, 2009 Slide = stand up slide (how to?) or body slide (whatever) ?Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #99 June 1, 2009 QuoteA PLF saved my ass this weekend. A slide worked great in a downwinder.Are you referring to the same landing, or two separate landings? Unless you meant a sort of a rolling slide (like the one that happened to me when I tripped over a big block of dried mud) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #100 June 1, 2009 QuoteSlide = stand up slide (how to?) or body slide (whatever) ? On my feet if I'm really in control and flying the canopy correctly. On my butt if I-m not. Lean left or right to get on one cheek or the other. Straight upright risks your tailbone a lot more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites