Near miss in freefall? A mystery? Advice needed.

[T_P 0]

So, a bit of an odd weekend which ended with a bit of a mystery. Advice would be appreciated. I'm a complete beginner with about 35 jumps, so excuse the lack of experience if this topic has been discussed before.

I went to one of my local dropzones and did 4 jumps. The first three were all uneventful solos with mixed groups in the plane: tandems, students, freeflyers etc. I was trying to land in the circle and almost made it all three times. On the 4th jump I met a very nice chap in the pen who was also doing a solo. We got chatting and it turned out he had done a couple of hundred jumps, and was into RW belly-flying. He offered to do a 2-way jump with me (very kind as I am beginner). I check the regulations with the load organizer (told him I was only an A license etc), and he confirmed that it was fine for us to do a 2 way. Exit order was then discussed in light of this. The following was agreed: a pair of free-flyers out first, then another pair of free-flyers, then us (as a 2 way) belly flying, then another 2 way bellying flying, then another 2 way belly flying.

We confirmed time gaps between groups with the load organizer and were told about 5 seconds. I agreed with the chap I was jumping with to leave it a bit longer than this (about 7 seconds). He said once the 2nd group of FFs had exited he would go to the door and wait about 4 seconds. Then I would climb past him onto the step, give him the thumbs out, then an out-in-out and off. That is what we did. We didn't rush it, both just went about it as agreed. We were jumping from 12k and had agreed to do simple points down to 5.5 k, then at 5 k turn and track. We discussed the tracking in detail because I was concerned about getting exactly 180 degree to him. Having said that I'm reasonably good at tracking (having outpaced my AFF instructor, and earned the name "rocket man" during my AFF) and can easily hold on a heading even though I'm still at low jump numbers. We agreed that I was going to pull at 4 k and he was going to pull at 3.5k. Everyone else on the load planned to pull at normal altitude. (3 - 3.5 k).

Because it was my first 2 way with points we agreed I would just turn and hold and he would then come and dock each time. I'm not sure what the uppers were like but we were fairly "deep" so I assume there was a fair wind up there. I was jumping a 210 student canopy so being a long way upwind was fine by me.

So... the chap I was jumping with waited in the door watching the others exit. Then after a few seconds I climbed out on to the step. I gave him the thumbs up. He responded, I did a slow out in out and off I went.

The jump was great. He floated down to me ever so gently. We docked, I did a 90 right, back to middle, and dock, 90 left (slewing off to the side a bit!) and docked again, and then it was about 5.5 k. I turned by 180 and tracked like mad, feeling the relative wind change as I picked up speed. At 4 k I pulled as agreed and had a normal opening. I looked around quickly and saw there was nobody anywhere nearby.

On the walk back to the hanger I chatted to the chap I jumped with about the jump. I asked him whether I had got my 180 degree turn right before the track. He said it had been perfect and that he had watched me between his legs as he had gone off, and we had been in exactly opposite directions.

So... great jump.

Then the CCI accosted me and said someone had complained there had been a near miss in freefall and that I was the likely suspect - could I find the person I had jumped with? So we found him, and the person who complained (quite rightly I should add) about the near miss.

The complaint was as follows. He had been freeflying and had exited with another jumper just before us. Just as he was opening he saw two bodies fall past him at about 45 feet from him and about 10 ft separation from each other. Both the CCI and the person who had complained seemed convinced that it must have been us because we had exited after them. He also said that he had seen one of the jumpers and knew it wasn't his friend (who had jumped in the group after us) because he knew what her rig looked like.

Both me and the other jumper took this very seriously for obvious reasons. I would like to hit someone in freefall about as much as they would like to be hit! We tried to work out what happened. I would be happy to take blame for it if I did something wrong, but most of all wanted to work out what had happened so we could all learn from it.

My initial reaction was that it was unlikely that it could be us. Firstly, we had started tracking at 5k, and had already discussed the track. The person I had jumped with had confirmed that it had been a good track (and though he only had a couple of hundred jumps, I'm sure he knows the difference between a good and a bad jump). So I said it would be very unlikely that we could have been within 10 feet of each other at opening height.

The response from the person who complained was that we had fewer jumps than him and probably couldn't track. The CCI said he was inclined to believe the person with more jumps.

I then said that it was even more unlikely because I had opened at 4k, and the chap I with confirmed he had opened at 3.5 k as agreed. So how could we have both fallen past the person who had complained if he had opened at about 3.5k.

The response from the complainant was that he had decided to open a bit high (about 4k he said) - I'm not sure why.

The chap I jumped with and the chap who had complained both had pro-tracks. Both pro-tracks showed an opening height of exactly 3.3 k. That sounded about right, but I had definitely opened at 4k. And I had checked my altimeter against several others in the plane (like I normally do).

This was explained away by the person who complained and the CCI by saying that all instruments are inaccurate and there must have been error in the instruments.

We were both blamed for not having left enough of a gap. We asked how long we should have left and were told about 7 seconds. We said we had both been counting and that was about how long we had left. This was explained away by saying that we must have both been counting too quickly.

We all agreed that a near miss of any sort is serious and that we must take all measures to avoid it in future. The tone of the conversation had entirely been that we (the relatively low jump jumpers) had been in the wrong, and that we had infringed the airspace of another skydiver. That's fine, and if we did I'm happy to take it on the chin and learn from it. But... firstly, I'm not convinced there is any evidence to support it, and in fact there seems to be a bit of evidence to the contrary. Secondly, what now. What if we did get that close to him? What should we do differently next time? I asked this question and was told to leave a proper exit gap. I said that we had both counted about 7 seconds. The other chap said he had done a 1 one-thousand, 2 one-thousand etc count to make sure he got the time about right. I asked if we should leave twice the gap 14 seconds next time. The CCI and the experienced jumper told me this was far too much. That was the end of the discussion.

So... two questions arise.

1) What the hell happened? Was it us, and if so what did we do wrong?
2) What do we do in future?

I'm not sure I know the answer to either question. If it was us (despite all the evidence to the contrary) perhaps this is the answer: http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

But where from here... should I go back to the CCI and see if he is willing to revisit exit order sending belly flyers out first as this article suggests? Given that the general tone of the previous conversation was that we must have been in the wrong because we have relatively low jump numbers I'm not sure he would be keen to have that discussion.

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

I'm not sure he would be keen to have that discussion.

One newbie to another, the exit order did strike me as strange.

By all means, ask him why the exit order is why it is.
I doubt that he is unwilling to talk about it 'because you have low jump numbers'.
If he is, it's not a DZ I'd want to be jumping at. New jumpers seeking information and understanding and asking questions is something that should be encouraged, not repressed.
But think about how you are going to have the discussion. Don't say "The exit order should be...", that'll get you nowhere. Ask for explanations.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[JohanW 0]

Indeed, exit order sounds strange (assuming jumprun was into the wind). For a two-way, tracking perpendicular to jumprun seems a good idea, but would not have helped in this instance (if you were indeed the 2way at 45 feet).

With the winds honking and the freeflyers exiting first, with only 7 seconds delay, and one of the freeflyers tracking up jumprun, I can easily see how he could have gotten that close horizontally. Can't explain the altitudes though.

Number of jumps should be a non-issue in the whole discussion.

1) It probably was you. You exited as a bellyflyer immediately after a freeflyer without doubling exit separation.
2) Next time, RW goes first, then FF. Within each group, larger formations go earlier than smaller ones. Soloes count as 1-person formations in their respective disciplines. Exercises like tracking, sitting and esp. early headdown attempts should be done perpendicular to jumprun and leave lots of separation anyway. But even a solo bellyflyer can have one hell of a backslide, and should be lieing across jumprun.

John Kallend has an excellent website about this, with a simulator. There have also been numerous posts about exit order (and jumprun direction, and what the winds do).

Johan.
I am. I think.

[DougH 270]

Quote

The response from the person who complained was that we had fewer jumps than him and probably couldn't track. The CCI said he was inclined to believe the person with more jumps.

Well, if that other jumper thinks that you should be tracking to gain separation from HIM, when he isn't even if your freefall group, then my response is that he needs to get his head out of his ass.

The CCI needs to wake up as well.

Putting freeflyers out first, because "that is just the way we do the exit order at our dropzone", isn't safe or smart when the jump run is flown into the upper winds.

Five seconds seems like a very short delay as well, although I suspect by the time you got in the door and out the delay was greater, unless there was nil winds at the top and the plane was screaming across the ground.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[trigger 0]

it's possible the fflyer was sliding down the jump run.
Especially if practicing hdown or back sliding in sit without regards of heading i.e not 90degrees to jump run.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[shep7376 0]

Certainly the exit order is strange, at my DZ the order is (assuming no students etc):

1. Flat (belly) groups largest to smallest.
2. Freefly groups largest to smallest.
3. Tandems, AFF etc last to go.

Personally I would (if it is really required) blame the JM for not sorting out the exit order. Certainly the origional poster is not to blame, given the level of experience it is possible that he is not aware of the best way to get out.

[fencebuster 7]

My initial reaction was -- wrong exit order. With reasonable upper winds and assuming the plane is flying into the reported winds, belly fliers will drift farther down-wind than free fliers and with the exit order in this caase could end up drifting over the FF group/s who exited earlier.

Belly fliers should exit first -- largest group to smallest as the biggest group will have the greatest drift because they have the most surface area for the winds to affect. FF next, largest group to smallest group/solo.

My other concern is direction of track. A two way should turn and track each 90 degrees off jump run, not necessarily 180 from each other without accounting for the direction of jump run. You do not want to turn 180 in order to find yourself tracking up or down the jump run into another group either before or after you.

It sounds like this DZ lacks some fundamental understanding of the effects of upper level winds and the effects they may have on different disciplines and group sizes.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[d123 1]

Quote

My other concern is direction of track. A two way should turn and track each 90 degrees off jump run, not necessarily 180 from each other without accounting for the direction of jump run. You do not want to turn 180 in order to find yourself tracking up or down the jump run into another group either before or after you.

If we apply this ideea we need to have different separation times depending on the size of the current, last and next group. The tendency at any DZ I've jumped (not so manny @ 9) is to keep the same separation time (with the prev group) for a 2way, for a 4way and for a 6way. For a 4way it will be harder to avoid tracking into the next group and for a 6 way it will be probably impossible.

However, I agree that for a 2way tracking perpendicular to the jump run it increase the chances of getting a good separation on opening.

Regards,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[sfc 0]

Exit order is wrong if there are uppers and the plane was flying into the wind, the reduction in separation that happened here is what results from the wrong exit order like this.

but I find it unlikely that both your protracks and altimeters were off by 1000 ft, and even more unlikely that you managed to catch a freecly group when you were flying on your belly. typical belly speed is 120mph, freefly is 150, a freefly group would reach pull altitude about 5-10 seconds faster than a belly group, increasing the vertical separation not reducing it.

You should track @ 90 degrees to the jump run on a 2-way not just 180 from each other, otherwise you run the risk of tracking into the next group.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

largest group to smallest as the biggest group will have the greatest drift because they have the most surface area for the winds to affect

A larger group in freefall does not move any faster across the ground nor are they affected by horizontal uppers any more or less. Within about 5-10 seconds of exiting the plane, you're falling straight down with respect to the air. Your ground speed at this point is the same as the horizontal speed of the winds at that altitude. Belly flyers drift further than free flyers because they are falling slower and therefore drifting across the ground for longer. Larger groups tend to drift further than smaller groups for the same reason - they are falling slower and therefore under the influence of the upper winds for longer. It is longer time in the air, not faster drift speeds as your comment suggests.

Aside from that, I agree with what you've said.

[JohanW 0]

Quote

Putting freeflyers out first, because "that is just the way we do the exit order at our dropzone", isn't safe or smart when the jump run is flown into the upper winds.

It can be done perfectly safe, but then there needs to be a longer delay between the last FF and the first RW.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[JohnDeere 0]

+1 i dont think he could have gone fast enought in that2 way to catch the ff s the most likely thing that happened was the 2 ff groups catching each other.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[brettski74 0]

Quote

typical belly speed is 120mph, freefly is 150, a freefly group would reach pull altitude about 5-10 seconds faster than a belly group, increasing the vertical separation not reducing it.

Putting any kind of reliance on vertical separation for safety is a bad idea. Given 5 seconds between groups and 5-10 seconds of additional freefall... 15 seconds at canopy descent rates amounts to somewhere in the vicinity of 300 feet - maybe a little more for those with higher wing loadings. Differences in reaction time, canopy opening speeds, instrument precision and the possibility of a malfunction can quickly eat up any vertical buffer you may have otherwise gained.

[mdrejhon 8]

Out-tracking your instructor during AFF -- congratulations. Sometimes some new skydivesr just uxpectedly perform a specific task (such as this) very well. So I think that should be added as a factor as enroachment to the next group of skydivers -- the farther you can go in a track, the more likely you will enroach the next group.

Normally being able to track well is great, and you DO need to practice your track. For most 2-way, one often doesn't need to track very far to get to safe airspace, and actually safer than airspace enroachment. Since many jumpers need to practice angle control during tracking, one idea to discuss with instructor is you may wish to intentionally track steeper (but inform your instructor/buddies about this intent) to get more familiar with angle control during tracking (for future tracking jumps, etc).

That said, you will still often want to practice your best track for longer periods during some 2-ways, for the sake of pratice of your tracking skills. In this case -- the other suggestions made by others are good, like changed jump order, increased exit delay as much as 10-12 seconds, tracking 90 degrees off jump-run, etc.

Also a pull at 4000 versus 3300 can also be explained by this: A 4000 pull to some people often means waveoff at 4000feet, reach at 3850feet, pilot chute release at 3700feet, and full canopy inflation by 3300feet under many canopies -- and many instruments often record the point *after* most of your vertical deceleration has occured. So the ProTrack or AltiTrack deployment altitude is often at least 500 feet lower than the pull altitude. It's something worth being aware of, why instruments measures altitudes almost 1K feet lower than what you clearly remember as the pull altitude.

I'll echo the sentiments about curiously ask why the exit order (freefliers first, bellyfliers last) is the way it is, and if it remains that way, what adjustments may be made to compensate.

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

Quote

typical belly speed is 120mph, freefly is 150, a freefly group would reach pull altitude about 5-10 seconds faster than a belly group, increasing the vertical separation not reducing it.

Putting any kind of reliance on vertical separation for safety is a bad idea. Given 5 seconds between groups and 5-10 seconds of additional freefall... 15 seconds at canopy descent rates amounts to somewhere in the vicinity of 300 feet - maybe a little more for those with higher wing loadings. Differences in reaction time, canopy opening speeds, instrument precision and the possibility of a malfunction can quickly eat up any vertical buffer you may have otherwise gained.

he said nothing about relying on vertical seperation! he was clearly talking about this incident and the belly group catching up with the ff group when the op was pulling higher than the ff 's.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[brettski74 0]

A couple of points that I don't think have been mentioned, yet.

If you're tracking away from a formation, you should be scanning the sky in front, around and beneath you while tracking to make sure you're heading into clear air for your deployment. If you were close to a deploying canopy, you should have been able to see him at some point - if not while in freefall, certainly when the colours of the canopy start to come out. It's kinda hard to miss. Did you see anyone around you during your track? Are you actively looking around you to clear your air while tracking away from the formation? If not, you should be.

You said that the plaintiff was able to disqualify the group after you based on colours. What colours did he see and do they match your rig, jumpsuit or canopy colours?

That said, while it's not impossible that it was somebody else, you and your buddy are the most likely culprits. If something like this happens, it's just as much your responsibility and in your best interests to seek out the other jumper/s and discuss what may have contributed to a close call. Don't be afraid to find the other guy and own up - "Yeah that was me. We were close and I'm sorry about that. I saw you and made sure that I avoided you, but we'll leave more time between groups next time." or something to that effect. I'd be much more concerned about a close call where the other party was unaware of it or didn't say anything in the hope that nobody noticed.

Finally, I've had a coach call me "rocket man" after a jump, too. I've also been smoked in a track on more than one occasion and humbled by what I've seen others able to do in a track. I think I can track pretty well, but I know that there is always room for improvement. Don't get complacent about how well you think you can track.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

he said nothing about relying on vertical seperation! he was clearly talking about this incident and the belly group catching up with the ff group when the op was pulling higher than the ff 's.

Maybe not explicitly, but he may as well have. The OP was pulling higher but his buddy was planning to pull at around the same altitude as the freeflyers. Aside from that, contrary to the post I was responding to, it is very possible for a belly flyer group that follows a freeflyer group to catch up to them around deployment altitude. In the 10-15 seconds between deployments, the freeflyers will descend perhaps 300 feet at canopy descent rates. Given variations in reaction time, instrument precision, canopy opening distance and human error, 300 feet is far too small a buffer to expect there to be no chance of them being close vertically on opening.

[kingbunky 3]

so you have a freeflyer who got out first (which isn't the norm most places), then decides to dump high without telling anyone

Quote

The response from the complainant was that he had decided to open a bit high (about 4k he said) - I'm not sure why.

, then he accuses a newer jumper of being in the wrong place, and claims your instruments are wrong.

sounds like someone needs an attitude adjustment.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[shep7376 0]

Any chance we can name and shame this DZ so I can avoid it??

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

So, a bit of an odd weekend which ended with a bit of a mystery.

No mystery. The same reduced drag that causes free fliers to fall faster means that they take longer to decelerate to zero forward speed when they get out. The increased speed means they spend less time in the upper winds than flat jumpers.

Combine the two together and even 10 seconds of separation can become zero at opening altitude - and you didn't wait 10 seconds. Put the free fliers out last and you can get an additional 1000-1500' of separation which are what the USPA BSRS for solo and group separation respectively.

This has been well understood for years and is the reason that the standard exit order is sky surf, free fly, belly.

Even if the first group is opening higher.

Quote

Advice would be appreciated. I'm a complete beginner with about 35 jumps, so excuse the lack of experience if this topic has been discussed before.

Put the free fliers out second. Or wait a real twenty seconds before the first belly group (count one-thousand, two-thousand, three-thousand, four-thousand, five-thousand, IGNORE the yelling, six-thousand, seven-thousand IGNORE the screaming to get out, etc. )

Free fliers who exit second opening first 1000-1500' away are safer than subsequent groups opening 30 seconds later in the same spot, especially if one of them opens high (accidentally or intentionally) or a belly flier opens low (accidentally or intentionally, perhaps after a ctuaway).

Here are two illustrations:

Free fliers exit first. Belly fliers exit 10 seconds later. Note that the yellow dot ends up in the same place as the red dot. Oops!

http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

Belly fliers exit first. Free fliers exit 10 second later. Note 1400' separating the two dots which is what you want.

http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift3.html

[sfc 0]

Quote

Quote

he said nothing about relying on vertical seperation! he was clearly talking about this incident and the belly group catching up with the ff group when the op was pulling higher than the ff 's.

Maybe not explicitly, but he may as well have. The OP was pulling higher but his buddy was planning to pull at around the same altitude as the freeflyers. Aside from that, contrary to the post I was responding to, it is very possible for a belly flyer group that follows a freeflyer group to catch up to them around deployment altitude. In the 10-15 seconds between deployments, the freeflyers will descend perhaps 300 feet at canopy descent rates. Given variations in reaction time, instrument precision, canopy opening distance and human error, 300 feet is far too small a buffer to expect there to be no chance of them being close vertically on opening.

I wasn't implying that you can rely on vertical separation for anything.
from the original post, the freeflyer stated he saw the other two Just as he was opening, at this point I don't think the belly group would have caught up, as they would have been 10-15 seconds behind him. I was using the vertical separation to discount the idea that it could have been them that passed the freefly during deployment.
10-15 seconds is 2000-3000 feet in freefall, there is no way he would mistake this for 45 feet if he had seen them.

[BrianM 1]

Quote

He also said that he had seen one of the jumpers and knew it wasn't his friend (who had jumped in the group after us) because he knew what her rig looked like.

If that is exactly what he said, it seems a bit fishy to me. He saw one of the jumpers well enough to know it wasn't his friend. How does he know it wasn't the person jumping with his friend, and the other jumper he didn't see well was his friend?

I would also think that if he saw a jumper well enough to tell it wasn't his friend, then he probably had a good enough look to figure out who it was - he only has 5 other rigs/jumpsuits to choose from.

The possibilities as I see them:
- It could have been you.
- If the uppers were strong enough, it could have been one of the groups after you.
- If he was falling faster than the freefly group that exited before him, he could have passed them in freefall. If one or both groups were sliding, the earlier group could have ended up right on top of him, without much vertical separation. Especially possible if the previous group are not skilled freefliers - they would be more likely to be falling slower (due to corking) and sliding.

Depending on the wind speed, 5 seconds may not have been enough regardless of exit order.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[brettski74 0]

Quote

I wasn't implying that you can rely on vertical separation for anything.
from the original post, the freeflyer stated he saw the other two Just as he was opening, at this point I don't think the belly group would have caught up, as they would have been 10-15 seconds behind him. I was using the vertical separation to discount the idea that it could have been them that passed the freefly during deployment.
10-15 seconds is 2000-3000 feet in freefall, there is no way he would mistake this for 45 feet if he had seen them.

That's a fair point. I hadn't thought of it that way. They can come close in space, but they're highly likely to still be separated in time, hence this probably couldn't have happened "just as he was opening".

[labrys 0]

Quote

I'm not sure what the uppers were

Kinda boils down to that, huh?

WTF were you doing on the plane with no idea what the uppers were?

Owned by Remi #?

[ufk22 32]

You've just experienced why it's hard sometimes to learn in this sport once off student status. Trying to separate the wisdom from the bullshit!
This guy got scared, but his goal seems to be to make sure it wasn't his fault.
1. If he had not pulled high, it wouldn't have been an issue
2. If HE had tracked 90 degrees off the line-of-flight it wouldn't have been an issue (unless either you or your parter tracks well backwards).
3. Anyone with a lot of skydiving experience knows that the exit order is backwards
Did you guys screw up??? Maybe, maybe not.
Did the freeflyer screw up (pull altitude and tracking)? yes

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.