rslavick 0 #1 May 30, 2007 Hey Everyone... My wife and I both have about 70 jumps and are looking to buy a new container that will fit a 150. We are having a hard time deciding but right now we are looking at buying a Javelin, Mirage or Infinity. Everything I've read sounds like personal opinions or brand loyalty. What I am looking for is the most innovative, best performing (for freeflying, wingsuits and RW - dont want flaps opening, etc), and most comfortable containers. Who is staying ahead of the pack? Who has thought of the little things that make life easier (and safer)? Do we need to have the skyhook? etc... Thanks for your help (and advice)! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #2 May 30, 2007 vector 3 myself, but infinity and mirage are good too. I owned a javelin that was made in 2001 and I got rid of it. It rode too high on my back which made hackey hard to reach and main flap would come open nearly eveytime i would sitfly. the pop top reserve I do not like either, I have seen many pilot chutes poking out of pop top and I really agree with mirages marketing ad which says something like your gear should be the last worry on your mind or something to that affect.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #3 May 30, 2007 The problem is that every definition of "best" or "most comfortable" is subjective. As such everyone's answer will only be an opinion. Personally I think mine is "best" and its not any of those three! LOL"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 May 30, 2007 I like my Infinity's for their bullet proof flaps. The main flap never comes open, the reserve riser covers are perfect. I've owned a Mirage and it too is a top notch rig, great protection, and super attention to detail and construction. Hands down however, all the Infinity's I've owned have had the most comfortable harness I've ever worn. I have had custom fit rigs from 5 manufacturers and the Infinty still tops them.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #5 May 30, 2007 I like the Infinity and Wings. Dont forget the Wings Scott "He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #6 May 30, 2007 All are good, respected rigs for anything you want to do. As of about a month ago the delivery time on Infinities was 25 weeks. Mirages are 4-6 weeks these days. I just bought a Mirage. I loved my last Infinity though. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #7 May 30, 2007 Quote Hey Everyone... My wife and I both have about 70 jumps and are looking to buy a new container that will fit a 150. We are having a hard time deciding but right now we are looking at buying a Javelin, Mirage or Infinity. Everything I've read sounds like personal opinions or brand loyalty. What I am looking for is the most innovative, best performing (for freeflying, wingsuits and RW - dont want flaps opening, etc), and most comfortable containers. Who is staying ahead of the pack? Who has thought of the little things that make life easier (and safer)? Do we need to have the skyhook? etc... Thanks for your help (and advice)! Ron, Welcome aboard. You mentioned that a lot of folks opinions have to do with brand loyalty and you're pretty much spot on there. For you, it may come down to which one y'all like they styling the most (i.e. the one that you think looks the coolest when you start picking colors) and delivery time because the Jav, Mirage, Infinity are all good rigs. I hate to bring politics into it, but IMO, Sunpath (mfgr of the Javelin) sent a big "F.U." to their customers and riggers out in the verse here recently over the way they handled the whole RSL issue on their rigs. It pains me somewhat to say that since I jump a Javelin, like it very much, but, also IMO, Sunpath, "Great Product, but Sometimes Crappy Customer Relations", because of this and other things I've experienced with them. I haven't jumped an Infinity and only have jumped a Mirage once or twice, but I have done reserve repacks on several Infinities and a Mirage once or twice; again, both good rigs. Seems to me sometimes some of the mfgr's have trouble building a harness / container for small folk... i.e. small girls. Most all mfgr's will stand behind their stuff and make it right if you're not happy with it right out of the box, but from what I've seen of Infinity, they tend to get it right more often the first time. Which brings me to another question... Y'all said you'd be interested in a rig that fits a 150 come when you have around 150 jumps. What will your predicted wing loading be on a 150?? My 2 cents, others will differ, so take it for what its worth, just one man's opinion... but I'm not much for going much over 1:1 on a reserve, even on the newer designs, definitely NOT on the older designs and I don't see much reason to push it much past the 1.2:1 range on a main for someone with 150 jumps, even with ZP, new canopy designs, etc. withstanding. Buuuut, that as they say, is all a different story! Happy rig shopping!! Let us know what y'all get. To add... You also talked about the Skyhook. Again, my 2 cents, from what I've seen of its performance, it looks like a great thing... however... also, my 2 cents, my tendancy is when something "new" comes onto the market (i.e. new canopy, new AAD, new rig, etc.) is to let it be out there for about 2 years and see what "kinks" come to the surface... i.e. Let someone else test jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #8 May 30, 2007 To add... You also talked about the Skyhook. Again, my 2 cents, from what I've seen of its performance, it looks like a great thing... however... also, my 2 cents, my tendency is when something "new" comes onto the market (i.e. new canopy, new AAD, new rig, etc.) is to let it be out there for about 2 years and see what "kinks" come to the surface... i.e. Let someone else test jump it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Relative Workshop/UPT has been installing Skyhooks for four years now, so have had time to work all the bugs out of the Skyhook installation on Vector 3/Micron. Sun Path/UPT only started installing Skyhooks in military Javelins last year. They had to completely redesign the yoke and mian riser covers to accomodate the Skyhook. They had a few problems with new main riser covers not opening, so I suspect that it will another six months or a year before all the bugs are worked out of the Skyhook installtion in Javelins. Similarly, Jeff Johnson told me about some problems he encountered with early drop tests of Skyhooks installed in Mirages. Jeff is working with UPT to resolve those problems, but that will still take another few months. The other problem - with any new technology - is brain-dead, illiterate, red-neck, field riggers who refuse to read the new manual. They have a bad habit of inventing new ways to pack ... ways that never crossed the designer's mind in his worst drunken nightmare! It takes even longer to idiot-proof new designs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #9 May 30, 2007 Quotevector 3 myself, but infinity and mirage are good too. I owned a javelin .... the pop top reserve I do not like either, I have seen many pilot chutes poking out of pop top ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing wrong with your Javelin, you just need to find a rigger who knows how to pack Javelins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pinkfairy 0 #10 May 30, 2007 Well, the Javelin has skyhook, and that could be a deciding factor. Why not an Icon? Aerodyne has licenced skyhook, so that will be available too, but I don't know exactly when. Looks great, good for freeflying, rigger-friendly, easy to pack, and will fit you perfectly if you order one sewn for you. The price is good too. No, you don't need skyhook, but getting your reserve out faster when cutting away can't be a bad thing. It's an improved version of the common RSL, it will not automatically save your life, but can make a diference. Have a look t the skyhook promo video at UPTs web pages. Modern sports rigs from the major manufacturers are all safe (apart from the fact that you will probably jump out of perfectly good aircraft with them), and what people recommend will always have a lot to do with brand loyalty. Remember that people have rigs sewn for them, so they fit perfectly, my Icon is sewn for me, so of course I love it. In addition to that, there's something special about a product that saves my life. I don't think you will be able to find objective advice on this. At my DZ, Vector is the most popular rig. Some years back, it was Mirage. My friendly, local parachute dealer isn't objective either, he likes Vector. Look at different rigs, ask your friends, then decide. And definetely look for used gear, because you can find great used rigs and save a lot of money that can be used for jumping. I hope this was of any help! Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trigger 0 #11 May 30, 2007 Like everyone has said the're all good.....personally i jump a mirage g4 for all it's worth and i,m not a big fan of javelins or pop tops in general but my reasons are more than likely unfounded....also like v3 microns alot .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 May 30, 2007 I am not sure if there were any major US manufacturers other than JumpShack which did NOT apply for licensing of the Skyhook at this PIA. I know that Aerodyne and Sunrise Manufacturing (Wings) definitely have. Pretty soon I think it's going to be like the three-ring release, which is to say "standard" across the board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #13 May 30, 2007 I jump a Vector 3, I think its one of the rigs with the most thought put into the design.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites champu 1 #14 May 30, 2007 Whatever rig you get, be sure to take care in closing the container, especially in the first 50 jumps or so on it. It is during this time that the flaps and covers will take a set, and poor care in this duration is the real root of people's claims that a particular rig design won't stay closed in freefall. They all stay closed just fine if you choose reasonably sized canopies and pack them correctly from day one. Make sure the secondary riser covers don't develop a bend in them too far from where they attach to the reserve container. If they do, they'll tend to buldge out and/or come open later in the rig's life. (Important on all rigs, but I see it happen a lot on Vectors) Make sure you get the closing sequence of the main container correct, and you note the correct positioning of the main pin cover if there is more than one way to do it. Failure to do so can cause the tabs associated with the main pin cover to take an improper set and come open more easily in freefall. (again, important on all rigs, but I see it screwed up a lot on Javs) /edited to clean up a couple sentences that didn't read clearly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,380 #15 May 30, 2007 >We are having a hard time deciding but right now we are looking at >buying a Javelin, Mirage or Infinity. I think you'd be happy with any of them. If you are in the market right now, I might wait a little on the Javelin. They just switched over to all-skyhook ready rigs, and I'd give them a few months to get the kinks worked out of that. >Do we need to have the skyhook? Nope. It's an option (like an RSL) that some people use, some don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 2shay 0 #16 May 30, 2007 mine did not have that problem. I have seen some excellent riggers have that happen to them. I think they need to go to enternal pc. Guess I don't see the purpose for it. I have heard that they supposedly extract faster, but I don't really buy that. let me know what you think the purpose for that isdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FLO13 0 #17 May 30, 2007 All of your options are sound products. Currently I jump a Vector 3 w/ a skyhook. Although If I was to order a new container, it'd probably be a javelin; also w/ a skyhook. I understand the comfort of the Javs to be second to none! I've had 1 cut away w/ my V3, and the skyhook was so fast. I didn't even feel myself fall from under my retreating main. I was so impressed, i'll not have another rig without one. I agree there's something to be said about proper R & D, and allowing time to work out the kinks. However, the Javs are the top selling rigs for a reason. and now the deal is even sweeter with the unsurpassed safety of the skyhook. But there again, it's only my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #18 May 30, 2007 QuoteI like my Infinity's for their bullet proof flaps. The main flap never comes open, the reserve riser covers are perfect. I've owned a Mirage and it too is a top notch rig, great protection, and super attention to detail and construction. Hands down however, all the Infinity's I've owned have had the most comfortable harness I've ever worn. I have had custom fit rigs from 5 manufacturers and the Infinty still tops them. I've had two Infinitys and still use my current one. Love it. It's a good rig, and way more affordable than the Mirage."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #19 May 31, 2007 ... enternal pc. Guess I don't see the purpose for it. I have heard that they supposedly extract faster, but I don't really buy that. let me know what you think the purpose for that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> External pilot chutes (i.e. Javelin and Racer) are one step in the process of simplifying, lightening, reducing the cost of production, speeding deployment of reserves, etc. containers. When Dan Poynter built the first external pilot chute (Pop-Top chest reserve circa 1975) his primary goal was to eliminate most of the metal stiffeners in military-surplus containers. The chest-mounted Pop-Top reserve evolved into today's Racer. Dan's gretest contribution was through-loops, which were soon copied by all other manufacturers. The second step in developing external pilot chutes was taken by Hank Ascuito (sp?) when he introduced the Streamlite container, circa 1980. The Streamlite reduced the number of reserve flaps from six, to four, by placing the reserve pilot chute on top of the side flaps and routing a single closing loop up through the middle of pilot chute. Streamlites still had wide reserve top and bottom flaps - which completely hid the pilot chute - making them look like Wonderhogs at arm's length. Hank never sold a lot of Streamlites, except in Southern California. By the mid 1980s, Mike Furry and Henri P. collaborated on a simplified version of the Streamlite that became the Javelin. Mike's forte has always been reducing production costs. The greatest innovation on the was the hard, aluminim cap on the exposed pilot chute. Over the years, another eight companies (worldwide) have copied Javelin, making it probably the most popular reserve container on this planet. A second motivation - to building exposed pilot chutes - was to reduce pilot chute hesitations. The combination of a weak spring and numerous closing flaps - with numerous bulky stiffeners - can all contribute to pilot chute hesitations. The fewer flaps over top of the pilot chute, the less the spring has to push out of its way on the path towards clear air. The problem of weak springs has gradually been eliminated by better metallurgy. However, the problem of too many stiff flaps has been exacerbated by the trend towards smaller and smaller containers. For example, a pilot chute with an 8 inch wide cap will always deploy gracefully from a 16 inch wide container, but when the container shrinks to 9 inches wide, tolerances get very tight and it is too easy for an old-school side flap to impede pilot chute launch. One solution is to eliminate side flaps, ala half-exposed pilot chute on Javelin. Javelin solves the whole problem - of side flaps impeding pilot chutes - by packing the pilot chute on top of the side flaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #10 May 30, 2007 Well, the Javelin has skyhook, and that could be a deciding factor. Why not an Icon? Aerodyne has licenced skyhook, so that will be available too, but I don't know exactly when. Looks great, good for freeflying, rigger-friendly, easy to pack, and will fit you perfectly if you order one sewn for you. The price is good too. No, you don't need skyhook, but getting your reserve out faster when cutting away can't be a bad thing. It's an improved version of the common RSL, it will not automatically save your life, but can make a diference. Have a look t the skyhook promo video at UPTs web pages. Modern sports rigs from the major manufacturers are all safe (apart from the fact that you will probably jump out of perfectly good aircraft with them), and what people recommend will always have a lot to do with brand loyalty. Remember that people have rigs sewn for them, so they fit perfectly, my Icon is sewn for me, so of course I love it. In addition to that, there's something special about a product that saves my life. I don't think you will be able to find objective advice on this. At my DZ, Vector is the most popular rig. Some years back, it was Mirage. My friendly, local parachute dealer isn't objective either, he likes Vector. Look at different rigs, ask your friends, then decide. And definetely look for used gear, because you can find great used rigs and save a lot of money that can be used for jumping. I hope this was of any help! Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #11 May 30, 2007 Like everyone has said the're all good.....personally i jump a mirage g4 for all it's worth and i,m not a big fan of javelins or pop tops in general but my reasons are more than likely unfounded....also like v3 microns alot .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 May 30, 2007 I am not sure if there were any major US manufacturers other than JumpShack which did NOT apply for licensing of the Skyhook at this PIA. I know that Aerodyne and Sunrise Manufacturing (Wings) definitely have. Pretty soon I think it's going to be like the three-ring release, which is to say "standard" across the board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #13 May 30, 2007 I jump a Vector 3, I think its one of the rigs with the most thought put into the design.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #14 May 30, 2007 Whatever rig you get, be sure to take care in closing the container, especially in the first 50 jumps or so on it. It is during this time that the flaps and covers will take a set, and poor care in this duration is the real root of people's claims that a particular rig design won't stay closed in freefall. They all stay closed just fine if you choose reasonably sized canopies and pack them correctly from day one. Make sure the secondary riser covers don't develop a bend in them too far from where they attach to the reserve container. If they do, they'll tend to buldge out and/or come open later in the rig's life. (Important on all rigs, but I see it happen a lot on Vectors) Make sure you get the closing sequence of the main container correct, and you note the correct positioning of the main pin cover if there is more than one way to do it. Failure to do so can cause the tabs associated with the main pin cover to take an improper set and come open more easily in freefall. (again, important on all rigs, but I see it screwed up a lot on Javs) /edited to clean up a couple sentences that didn't read clearly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #15 May 30, 2007 >We are having a hard time deciding but right now we are looking at >buying a Javelin, Mirage or Infinity. I think you'd be happy with any of them. If you are in the market right now, I might wait a little on the Javelin. They just switched over to all-skyhook ready rigs, and I'd give them a few months to get the kinks worked out of that. >Do we need to have the skyhook? Nope. It's an option (like an RSL) that some people use, some don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #16 May 30, 2007 mine did not have that problem. I have seen some excellent riggers have that happen to them. I think they need to go to enternal pc. Guess I don't see the purpose for it. I have heard that they supposedly extract faster, but I don't really buy that. let me know what you think the purpose for that isdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLO13 0 #17 May 30, 2007 All of your options are sound products. Currently I jump a Vector 3 w/ a skyhook. Although If I was to order a new container, it'd probably be a javelin; also w/ a skyhook. I understand the comfort of the Javs to be second to none! I've had 1 cut away w/ my V3, and the skyhook was so fast. I didn't even feel myself fall from under my retreating main. I was so impressed, i'll not have another rig without one. I agree there's something to be said about proper R & D, and allowing time to work out the kinks. However, the Javs are the top selling rigs for a reason. and now the deal is even sweeter with the unsurpassed safety of the skyhook. But there again, it's only my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #18 May 30, 2007 QuoteI like my Infinity's for their bullet proof flaps. The main flap never comes open, the reserve riser covers are perfect. I've owned a Mirage and it too is a top notch rig, great protection, and super attention to detail and construction. Hands down however, all the Infinity's I've owned have had the most comfortable harness I've ever worn. I have had custom fit rigs from 5 manufacturers and the Infinty still tops them. I've had two Infinitys and still use my current one. Love it. It's a good rig, and way more affordable than the Mirage."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 May 31, 2007 ... enternal pc. Guess I don't see the purpose for it. I have heard that they supposedly extract faster, but I don't really buy that. let me know what you think the purpose for that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> External pilot chutes (i.e. Javelin and Racer) are one step in the process of simplifying, lightening, reducing the cost of production, speeding deployment of reserves, etc. containers. When Dan Poynter built the first external pilot chute (Pop-Top chest reserve circa 1975) his primary goal was to eliminate most of the metal stiffeners in military-surplus containers. The chest-mounted Pop-Top reserve evolved into today's Racer. Dan's gretest contribution was through-loops, which were soon copied by all other manufacturers. The second step in developing external pilot chutes was taken by Hank Ascuito (sp?) when he introduced the Streamlite container, circa 1980. The Streamlite reduced the number of reserve flaps from six, to four, by placing the reserve pilot chute on top of the side flaps and routing a single closing loop up through the middle of pilot chute. Streamlites still had wide reserve top and bottom flaps - which completely hid the pilot chute - making them look like Wonderhogs at arm's length. Hank never sold a lot of Streamlites, except in Southern California. By the mid 1980s, Mike Furry and Henri P. collaborated on a simplified version of the Streamlite that became the Javelin. Mike's forte has always been reducing production costs. The greatest innovation on the was the hard, aluminim cap on the exposed pilot chute. Over the years, another eight companies (worldwide) have copied Javelin, making it probably the most popular reserve container on this planet. A second motivation - to building exposed pilot chutes - was to reduce pilot chute hesitations. The combination of a weak spring and numerous closing flaps - with numerous bulky stiffeners - can all contribute to pilot chute hesitations. The fewer flaps over top of the pilot chute, the less the spring has to push out of its way on the path towards clear air. The problem of weak springs has gradually been eliminated by better metallurgy. However, the problem of too many stiff flaps has been exacerbated by the trend towards smaller and smaller containers. For example, a pilot chute with an 8 inch wide cap will always deploy gracefully from a 16 inch wide container, but when the container shrinks to 9 inches wide, tolerances get very tight and it is too easy for an old-school side flap to impede pilot chute launch. One solution is to eliminate side flaps, ala half-exposed pilot chute on Javelin. Javelin solves the whole problem - of side flaps impeding pilot chutes - by packing the pilot chute on top of the side flaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #20 May 31, 2007 sounds great, however I do not agree with companies when they do stuff that is cheaper and not exactly as safe as possible. I just really don't like the idea of the pilot chute snaking out. I guess I think well a javelin reserve will get out quicker and better than my v3? I don't really think so. Hell I don't know, but I really perfer the pilot chutes to just be the heck out of the way.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3331 108 #21 May 31, 2007 http://www.jumpshack.com/I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #22 June 1, 2007 www.skydivewings.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
someday 0 #23 June 1, 2007 correct me when im wrong, but when i see mirages and infinity's next to eachother it looks like infinity has better pin protection (i mean im sure they are all good these days) but it looks like its more "flush" that there is no space between the flap and the outside of the container, its like its completley sealed, or so it seems that mirage's are kind of lifted off the back part? you get it? am i correct? (gratz) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #24 June 1, 2007 infinity is excellent, but I think in time their main closing flap will lose its hardness and closability. I may be wrong but the inverted closing flap makes it nearly foolproof. My v3 I haave never seen open and many others the same. Keep in mind infinity is awesome I would jump one anytime, just hoping they will invert the closing flap one of these days and that may change my idea of what rig I will own or at least have an extra.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #25 June 1, 2007 www.uptvector.com Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
