Skydiving vs Driving. Which is safer?

[kallend 1,619]

www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060821/WDH0101/608210467/1981Dave

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Frenchy68 0]

"Statistically, you have a better chance of getting hurt or killed on Wisconsin roads, Dahms said."
I don't have stats, but I know a lot more people who drive cars than I know people who jump off airplanes. And I know a lot more skydivers who have died or been seriously hurt (and I have only been in the sport for less than 3 years) than car drivers who experienced such trauma. I think this is a greatly misleading statement, and anyone who thinks this way is greatly fooling him/herself. In my humble opinion...

BSBD

Nick

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Iceburner 0]

According to USPA there were 2.2 million jumps in 2005 in the US with 27 deaths. This is about .0000122%

according to caraccidents.com,
In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. (.00678% chance of dieing in car accident)

[piisfish 135]

Quote

according to caraccidents.com,
In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. (.00678% chance of dieing in car accident)

not compared accurately.. the number of car rides should be taken into account.

or the numbers of fatalities per skydiving accidents.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[beowulf 1]

Good point piisfish.

Iceburner if you want this to be accurate then why compare the total number of car accidents to the total number of jumps made? Are you trying to say that a jump is the same as a car accident? See how silly that is? If you were to compare the number of skydiving accidents to the number of car accidents and then compare the percentage of fatal skydiving accidents to the percentage of fatal car accidents then you would have something worth talking about.

[DJL 232]

Car wrecks vs. skydive accidents has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Reginald 0]

Bad news, you completely misrepresented the figures. First you are calculating the number of driving deaths to the number of accidents. It is only appropriate to calculate deaths relative to the number of people driving in cars, which is virtually the entire population of the US, which is roughly 295,000,000. Second you are calculating a per jump skydiving figure and a per year driving figure. These are not comparable figures. A better comparison is either number of car trips fatalities vs number of fatalities per skydive or an annual death rate of people in cars to the annual death rate of skydivers. Third you are inserting two extra zeros in your figures which because you are showing a % also is incorrect.

A better comparison is something like this. Of the 295 million people in the country 90% or drive or ride in cars during the year. 42,815 die or 42,815/(295,000,000*.9)=.016% or 16 people for every 100,000 that drive or ride in a car. This compares to roughly 30,000 USPA members and 27 deaths. Now let’s say 2 of the deaths are tandems and not “regular” skydivers so we have an estimated 25 skydivers die of the 30,000 or .083% or 83 per 100,000. So skydiving is more than 5 times more dangerous than driving on an annual basis. This is at least a fair attempt at making the figures comparable although I will be the first person to say it is probably an UNDERESTIMATION of the risks of skydiving.

Anyone that thinks skydiving is less dangerous than driving is fooling themselves. I’m beginning to see a common thread in this incident. The deceased think that “all an AAD would do would allow for an open casket,....” and a second person on the jump and another local skydiver quoted in the press have fooled themselves into thinking skydiving is safer than driving. I am beginning to think this DZ or group of skydivers lacks a culture of safety and this is a contributing cause of this fatality.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

According to USPA there were 2.2 million jumps in 2005 in the US with 27 deaths. This is about .0000122%

according to caraccidents.com,
In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. (.00678% chance of dieing in car accident)

Those stats aren't comparable. You have:

- # of jumps
- # of deaths

and then for cars you have:

- # of car accidents
- # of deaths

See what I'm saying? The first set has usage vs death, the second has disasters vs deaths; they don't compare.

You would have to go # of trips in a car vs # of jumps and find the death ratios as a possible head to head comparison. The comparison I like best is the:

- # of USA USPA members
- # of deaths

That'll wake you up. 32,000 members worldwide, probbaly 25,000 in the USA, 27 deaths.... do the math...... .0011 The ratio is 1:000 US ASPA jumpers died last year. OF course you would have to subtract tandem students, which, if there were any and I can think of 1, would throw the ratio up slightly.

Now, take the number of drivers or passengers in a car, probably 300,000,000 and then your number for traffic fatalities, 42,815. Number is approx .000143, or 10% of the skydiving death rate. I think this is far more apples/apples than your comparison based upon the same independent variable, which is based upon usage. Now you could define it further by establishing specific use, as in how many members jump 10 times before lunch and how many haven't jumped in years. With cars, most everyone drives, but some drive/ride 1,000 miles a day while others drive/ride once a week. So this is a very tough set of ratiosn to compare to each other, but be real, skydiving 10 times a month is FAR more dangerous than driving to the DZ and to work, grocery, etc....

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

according to caraccidents.com,
In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. (.00678% chance of dieing in car accident)

not compared accurately.. the number of car rides should be taken into account.

or the numbers of fatalities per skydiving accidents.

And after that long diatribe I just wrote you condensed it to that.... shoulda read further

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Bad news, you completely misrepresented the figures. First you are calculating the number of driving deaths to the number of accidents. It is only appropriate to calculate deaths relative to the number of people driving in cars, which is virtually the entire population of the US, which is roughly 295,000,000. Second you are calculating a per jump skydiving figure and a per year driving figure. These are not comparable figures. A better comparison is either number of car trips fatalities vs number of fatalities per skydive or an annual death rate of people in cars to the annual death rate of skydivers. Third you are inserting two extra zeros in your figures which because you are showing a % also is incorrect.

A better comparison is something like this. Of the 295 million people in the country 90% or drive or ride in cars during the year. 42,815 die or 42,815/(295,000,000*.9)=.016% or 16 people for every 100,000 that drive or ride in a car. This compares to roughly 30,000 USPA members and 27 deaths. Now let’s say 2 of the deaths are tandems and not “regular” skydivers so we have an estimated 25 skydivers die of the 30,000 or .083% or 83 per 100,000. So skydiving is more than 5 times more dangerous than driving on an annual basis. This is at least a fair attempt at making the figures comparable although I will be the first person to say it is probably an UNDERESTIMATION of the risks of skydiving.

Anyone that thinks skydiving is less dangerous than driving is fooling themselves. I’m beginning to see a common thread in this incident. The deceased think that “all an AAD would do would allow for an open casket,....” and a second person on the jump and another local skydiver quoted in the press have fooled themselves into thinking skydiving is safer than driving. I am beginning to think this DZ or group of skydivers lacks a culture of safety and this is a contributing cause of this fatality.

We used a little bit different #'s, but the same methodology. I came up with skyiving being about 9 times more dangerous, but hey, it's all semantics at this point. We agree that these are hard numbers to compare and that anyone who wants to rationalize skydiving as safe is jerking someone's chain, probably their wives so they can continue to jump!

Quote

I am beginning to think this DZ or group of skydivers lacks a culture of safety and this is a contributing cause of this fatality.

Perhaps this is why Brett Favre is still playing football up there.

[base363 0]

Isn't there a forum dedicated to statistical analysis for new jumpers? Maybe you could take your meaningless discussion there.

[Remster 24]

Quote

Isn't there a forum dedicated to statistical analysis for new jumpers? Maybe you could take your meaningless discussion there.

Yes. Please.

Remster

[Punk734 0]

This is exactly why I only read the first post on any thread on dz.com....are you really picking apart a stat a fellow jumper gave the press after watching his friend burn in????

Fly free Brotha...

[pope 0]

Quote

This is exactly why I only read the first post on any thread on dz.com....

Lucky...

Jumps
License
In sport
:
:
:

Aug 21, 2006, 8:56 AM

Post #23 of 31 (353 views)

Registered: Mar 5, 2006
Posts: 893

?

It should be considered that it was not gear, but a physical limitation that kept him from pulling-I've heard of dislocated shoulders get in the way of pulls before...might help explain some spinning? Of course it doesn't explain a lack of reserve deployment.
Was he known to have any shoulder problems or other physical/mental impairments?
Could it have been a Stroke? Seizure? M.I.?
bsbd.



















.

[regulator 0]

all of you are a bunch of fucking retards. People die. It happens. NO matter from a car, a boat, a tractor, old age, too much pussy, not enough perhaps, suicide....whatever...shit happens...you die and people miss you...then life goes on. Personally I plan on jumping every day I can and hittin terminal velocity as often as possible. Then one day some other dumbass like you guys can make stupid comments about my death.

south texas skydivers kick ass

[Madman 0]

First of all he was not wearing a costume of any sort. Yes he has done demos before. 20 years in the sport. A hard pull was not the issue.

[Scoop 0]

...or we can try and avoid another unneccesary death by discussing it sensibly and calmly like adults with a rational head. I fyour volunterring yourself for that cause, fine, the more lessons I learn without having to experience them first hand the better

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

First of all he was not wearing a costume of any sort. Yes he has done demos before. 20 years in the sport. A hard pull was not the issue.

My mistake, I misread the news article.

20 years in the sport with less than 400 jumps is a red flag when doing demos. That’s averaging 20 jumps a year. On most demos the FAA will call for 50 in the proceeding 12 months.

What makes you feel a hard pull was not an issue in this incident?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

all of you are a bunch of fucking retards. People die. It happens. NO matter from a car, a boat, a tractor, old age, too much pussy, not enough perhaps, suicide....whatever...shit happens...you die and people miss you...then life goes on. Personally I plan on jumping every day I can and hittin terminal velocity as often as possible. Then one day some other dumbass like you guys can make stupid comments about my death.

south texas skydivers kick ass

Good by.

"It is better to keep quite and thought of as a retard then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Ever hear a quote like that before.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

all of you are a bunch of fucking retards.

It's nice to know that someone with 8 jumps has everything you need to know about this sport already figured out. I'd bet you think you're a natural up there right?

Quote

People die. It happens

That they do and you know the saying? "Stay in this sport long enough and you too will know somebody who's died and/or it may just be you".

Quote

Personally I plan on jumping every day I can and hittin terminal velocity as often as possible. Then one day some other dumbass like you guys can make stupid comments about my death.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason this forum exists is to learn from the mistakes of others. Plus with your attitude, it sure sounds like you're on the fast track to becoming one of these incidents. Hey I've got a JVX 96 for sale. You interested in it? Yes anyone of us can be next. But hopefully we learn from the mistakes of others to prevent us from becoming the next incident. It's not the number of breathes we take in life which counts. It's the number of times our life takes our breath away. But to die because we did something stupid by not learning from the mistakes of others hurts the image of the whole sport. If you continue to think that we are retards in this sport, might I suggest you take up another sport (like racing crotch rockets on busy highways) because we don't want careless people up there in the skies with us.

PS: to all the others reading this, my comments about being stupid and dying are not directly related to the deceased in this incident.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chaoskitty 0]

Right on, Steve. It seems that someone with 8 jumps or 8000 jumps could learn a lot from this incident.

Quote

Then one day some other dumbass like you guys can make stupid comments about my death.

The people who read this forum and learn from others mistakes are more likely to be here to talk about what you did to kill yourself. Which end of the conversation do you want to be on?

[firstime 0]

ditto

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Right on, Steve. It seems that someone with 8 jumps or 8000 jumps could learn a lot from this incident.

Even 8 jump freestylists/wing suit jumpers? Don't feed the troll. If he's really a skydiver, he's only in it for some childish ego trip. He'll quit after 20 jumps like they all do.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chaoskitty 0]

Oh I know. Just wanted to make sure he knew we'd be happy to talk about him too, since its attention he's after.

[Tonto 1]

Moved this from Wisconsin Fatal thread.

Please continue discussion here.

t

It's the year of the Pig.