billvon 2,391 #26 May 22, 2007 I suspect the I+R price won't go up, but the cost for the overall service will. Even now we regularly see holes in reserve PC's, damaged binding tape, worn legstrap hip junctions, worn out spandex on PC pockets etc. Going to longer inspection intervals will mean this stuff will have to be repaired/replaced more often. Should still end up saving individual jumpers money though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #27 May 22, 2007 Quote I suspect the I+R price won't go up, but the cost for the overall service will. Even now we regularly see holes in reserve PC's, damaged binding tape, worn legstrap hip junctions, worn out spandex on PC pockets etc. Going to longer inspection intervals will mean this stuff will have to be repaired/replaced more often. Should still end up saving individual jumpers money though. What???Edited to add: I hope thats all sarcasim...jumpers not knowing their gear is a problem and will be in the future...but I cannot see how this would ever warrent the quoted statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packertom 0 #28 May 22, 2007 honestly as a working rigger with a full service loft... over thirty machines to feed and support and a hell of an electricity bill... charging more would be great, but I won't increase my fees. I&R's generally speaking don't make any money... if I were to charge by the hour a repack would be around 150 bucks.. timing it out, I lose money on every repack I do... minor repairs make me money. I don't see how riggers could justify raising their repack rates just because the repack cycle has been extended... now if riggers were to raise their rates due to their costs... as I did about 3 years ago when I discovered that I had rent, electricity, property taxes and sales taxes to deal with that "shade tree" riggers didn't have to contend with, that would be justified... I charge 10 bucks more than other riggers in the area without their own loft and another rigger I know in Texas also charges 10 bucks more because he has to maintain his loft... surprisingly enough, I didn't lose many if any customers over price... but honestly, if your rigger increases his/hers rates due to a change in the repack cycle, find another rigger.. price changes should be keyed to costs, not the frequency of the work to be done. just my two cents[email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packertom 0 #29 May 22, 2007 one more point that begs to be brought up... what is it with skydivers and being cheap? this may be your LAST RESORT people!!!! I don't know how many times I field questions like what is the cheapest reserve? where can I find a really cheap reserve? I don't want to waste money on something I won't ever use... etc... jesus people, think about it... when your brand new shiny and crispy VX (that you had no qualms over spending top dollar for) spins up on you at 2000 ft, do you really want a used 20 year old Swift reserve to be the only thing between you and a hole in the ground? how about a terminal opening on a 20 year old used reserve that you got a great deal on so you could use the extra money to buy a spiffy matching jumpsuit? news flash people, the first thing that happens is that they cut the spiffy new matching jumpsuit off you. I don't want to start an argument and sorry if my tone is a bit rough, but people you have to understand that you WILL have a reserve ride if you skydive long enough and you WILL want to survive it. When you try to tell whuffos about skydivers not wanting to "waste" money on a reserve or don't want to pay to have it repacked frequently, they are baffled... invariably they say something like... isn't that the only thing that keeps you alive if your main doesn't work? just a thought... kinda off topic, but this thread got me going[email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #30 May 23, 2007 QuoteI'm actually considering going up by less than 50%. The skydiver/pilot will get better value (more days per $) and I won't eat all of the decrease in pack jobs. Why not split the difference and raise your rates by 25%? That's as fair as it gets. Everyone gives an equal amount, everyone gets an equal amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #31 May 23, 2007 QuoteIn France, when we moved to a one year cycle, prices increased from 30 to 40%. So, it might be the same,no? Well, historically in the U.S. we used to have a 60 day cycle (an old rule dating from the days of natural silk canopy fabric). In 1978 the FAA finally signed off on the 120 day cycle and as I recall the price of a repack doubled overnight from $5 to $10. That's not to take a position for or against a price increase, I want a rigger who will look after my whole rig the way a pediatrician looks after my kids. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #32 May 23, 2007 QuoteIn the end, I&Rs were never profitable, but I make more money repairing harness/containers. just like lube oil and filters for cars are a break even at best, but it brings lots of repaiirs you find while doing them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #33 May 23, 2007 Repacks are worth whatever the rigger wants to charge and the customers are willing to pay. I usually just leave mine at whatever place is most convenient, since I trust most of the local riggers and I don't want to make an extra trip to drop off or pick up my rig. I'm not going to drive a few hours to save a few bucks on a repack when I'm spending much more on gas. If the prices go up a little bit, I'll probably pay whatever their charging, as long as it's not way out of line with what other local riggers are charging. But for me it's usually more about where I want to jump the weekend before and after my reserve is due. I would guess that most people have a home DZ that they frequent and just give it to the rigger there. If his price goes up, they may complain, but few are going to shop around for the next closest rigger. Other people use a friend that doesn't work for a DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Titanman2789 0 #34 May 23, 2007 Quote The laws of Supply and Demand dictate the price for an I&R should go down, strangely. The demand of jumpers asking for them will decrease, while the supply of riggers wanting the work will stay the same. Generally, I'm a big believer in supply and demand. It is a very good way of estimating how prices will move. All things being equal, I never bet against it. I doubt very much that riggers who try to increase their prices will get very far. I suspect that those that do will get a lot of pushback from jumpers who are more then happy to take their rigs elsewhere. _Am On a graph of supply and demand though, the price increases if there is a shift in the demand curve (increasing shift ). It decreases if there is a decreasing shift (see third attachment). If the demand only decreases along the original line, then the price will increase, and there will be more supply available and the graph will be out of equilibrium (see first attachment). A change to repack every 180 days will only make the demand decrease, not shift i think. The demand will decrease along the original line, so there will be more riggers (supply) available for work. Then for the graph to reach equilibrium with the new 180 day repack rule, the supply of riggers would have to have to shift back so that there would not be a surplus of riggers waiting for work. I think that is what i have learned from economics Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #35 May 23, 2007 Those who say they won't raise their prices...how many repacks do you do a year? I'd imagine not very many. I've already done over 200 this year, at $50 a pop. Now cut that by a third and do the math. While I may make more dollar for dollar profit from repairs, repacks pay the bills. If the cycle changes (and I hope they do), my per repack overhead goes up. How do I recoup that increase? Maybe I'll raise my repack prices but keep the service the same. Or maybe I'll keep the same price but charge for all the little things I now do at no charge (all new loops, 20 minutes of minor repairs, no markup or charge for any AAD services,retacking softlinks, installing slider bumpers, fixing other rigger's mistakes, etc, all for free). Which will the customer want, a $50 repack with $30 in repairs or a $75 repack? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #36 May 23, 2007 >but I cannot see how this would ever warrent the quoted statement. Stuff wears out. Over the course of a rig's life (10 years for example), say 20 components will need to be replaced. If a rigger sees the rig twice a year instead of 3 times a year, then every single time it comes in it will need something replaced, on average. If the repack interval had stayed at 3 times a year, then maintenance would not have been needed 33% of the time. Jumpers rarely perform their own maintenance on their rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #37 May 23, 2007 Quote Quote The laws of Supply and Demand dictate the price for an I&R should go down, strangely. The demand of jumpers asking for them will decrease, while the supply of riggers wanting the work will stay the same. Generally, I'm a big believer in supply and demand. It is a very good way of estimating how prices will move. All things being equal, I never bet against it. I doubt very much that riggers who try to increase their prices will get very far. I suspect that those that do will get a lot of pushback from jumpers who are more then happy to take their rigs elsewhere. _Am On a graph of supply and demand though, the price increases if there is a shift in the demand curve (increasing shift ). It decreases if there is a decreasing shift (see third attachment). If the demand only decreases along the original line, then the price will increase, and there will be more supply available and the graph will be out of equilibrium (see first attachment). A change to repack every 180 days will only make the demand decrease, not shift i think. The demand will decrease along the original line, so there will be more riggers (supply) available for work. Then for the graph to reach equilibrium with the new 180 day repack rule, the supply of riggers would have to have to shift back so that there would not be a surplus of riggers waiting for work. I think that is what i have learned from economics I know nothing about economic theory, but I do know how to read graphs. So are you two saying that since the supply of riggers will be the same (at first anyway) and the demand will be lower when we go to 180 day repack cycles that we shall be be going from point 1 to point 2 on the attached graph? IOW, LOWER repack costs? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #38 May 23, 2007 Right now I pay $45 ($135 x yr). If my rigger raise it to $67.50 ($135 x yr) I wont mind.HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #39 May 23, 2007 From where I am, it has always been 6 months, that is IMO the best time frame. The price increased from NZ$40 to NZ$50 some time back with my local guy in NZ. 4 month cycle has always been too strict IMO, the change to 6 moths is appropriate. Riggers should charge $50 a reserve pack, not because they are getting lees work but because that is how much it should cost. If you have a loft and shit loads of gear and offer more advanced repairs then charge appropriately. I would pay more to have my reserve packed by such an establishment! Blue skies and safe swoops, Rhyso"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 May 23, 2007 Price should stay the same. No change in the work required to re-pack = no difference in per-pack labor rate. You would have 1/3 more time to do 1/3 more re-paks at the same price. OTOH, It's the American way to raise prices given even the slightest excuse, real or imagined, to do so.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #41 May 23, 2007 I'm a rigger, I will do the same amount of work. I do it because I love to do it and want to keep skydivers safe, not because I need the money. Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Titanman2789 0 #42 May 23, 2007 Quote Quote Quote The laws of Supply and Demand dictate the price for an I&R should go down, strangely. The demand of jumpers asking for them will decrease, while the supply of riggers wanting the work will stay the same. Generally, I'm a big believer in supply and demand. It is a very good way of estimating how prices will move. All things being equal, I never bet against it. I doubt very much that riggers who try to increase their prices will get very far. I suspect that those that do will get a lot of pushback from jumpers who are more then happy to take their rigs elsewhere. _Am On a graph of supply and demand though, the price increases if there is a shift in the demand curve (increasing shift ). It decreases if there is a decreasing shift (see third attachment). If the demand only decreases along the original line, then the price will increase, and there will be more supply available and the graph will be out of equilibrium (see first attachment). A change to repack every 180 days will only make the demand decrease, not shift i think. The demand will decrease along the original line, so there will be more riggers (supply) available for work. Then for the graph to reach equilibrium with the new 180 day repack rule, the supply of riggers would have to have to shift back so that there would not be a surplus of riggers waiting for work. I think that is what i have learned from economics I know nothing about economic theory, but I do know how to read graphs. So are you two saying that since the supply of riggers will be the same (at first anyway) and the demand will be lower when we go to 180 day repack cycles that we shall be be going from point 1 to point 2 on the attached graph? IOW, LOWER repack costs? . I dont think with the change to 180 repack cycle the demand line will shift from point 1 to point 2 on your graph. It will simply decrease along the original demand line, causing an increase in price and a surplus of riggers available for work Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #43 May 23, 2007 QuoteIt will ... [cause] a surplus of riggers available for work Many (most?) riggers already do not meet the FAR currency requirements. The supply relative to demand will increase, currency will decrease. My income will go up because I'll be fixing their mistakes. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #44 May 23, 2007 Quote I dont think with the change to 180 repack cycle the demand line will shift from point 1 to point 2 on your graph. It will simply decrease along the original demand line, causing an increase in price and a surplus of riggers available for work I have since looked at a couple of web sites explaining the supply-demand theory. The curves denoted by D1 or D2 are constant demand lines. They are contour plots of demand. That means, in mathematical terms, that at any point on D1 or D2 the demand is the same. Likewise, for the supply lines. So your comment of "It will simply decrease along the original demand line", with 'It' refering to demand, makes no sense to me. If 'It' refers to supply, then prices would go up when the supply of riggers decreases. That will probably happen, but not right when the rule gets changed. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #45 May 23, 2007 Well, historically in the U.S. we used to have a 60 day cycle (an old rule dating from the days of natural silk canopy fabric). In 1978 the FAA finally signed off on the 120 day cycle ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to be historically exact, the old military standard required silk and cotton (natural fibers that are considered food by moths, fungus, etc.) parachutes to be repacked every 30 days. During the 1960s, USPA lobbied to get that changed to 60 days - and eventually 120 days - after military-surplus silk parachutes disappeared from American DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TCMRigging 0 #46 May 23, 2007 Lets look at it very simply, a $50.00 repack good for 120 days is worth 41.6 cents per day. So 41.6 cents for 180 days is about 75 bucks. If I was still rigging heavily I would still charge the same and just get more clients, someone would have to pay me about 500 bucks to get my lazy ass to pack a rig these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #47 May 23, 2007 Quote Lets look at it very simply, a $50.00 repack good for 120 days is worth 41.6 cents per day. So 41.6 cents for 180 days is about 75 bucks. so you clearly will refund $25 if your client has a malfunction on day 45 ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutingstar 1 #48 May 23, 2007 Quote Quote Lets look at it very simply, a $50.00 repack good for 120 days is worth 41.6 cents per day. So 41.6 cents for 180 days is about 75 bucks. so you clearly will refund $25 if your client has a malfunction on day 45 The cost of the inspection/repack can not based on how long it's good for. It's based on what the rigger's time is worth during the inspection/repack. If it lasts one day (reserve ride) or 1 year, it's still based on the time, material and labor it takes to do the work. The arbitrary time limit on a packed reserve means nothing to me except to inform the jumper or pilot when they are required by federal regulations to have it inspected/repacked again. I'm all for the 180-day cycle, and even better would be PD's proposed 1-year cycle. When it comes down to it, it's all about how well the owner takes care of their gear. The owner can make it unairworthy after 1 jump or it can come back to you after a couple of years in perfect condition. Educating the jumpers/pilots of interim inspections of their gear between required inspection/repacks is key. Also, I don't believe any riggers have 100% of their customers bringing back their rigs on the 120-day cycle anyway. Be it the weather, life, money, time of boogies, etc., I probably see only 50% of my customers on a 120-day cycle. The rest are seasonal, or they stop jumping and sell their gear, or they are away when it comes due and see another rigger. I don't believe the 180-day cycle is going to affect the general workload of riggers...there already seems to be a shortage of riggers who really want the work. I think I've rambled enough...needless to say (but I will anyway), I won't be raising/dropping my prices based on if the 180-day cycle is approved. But I will continuing raising/dropping prices dependent on what I determine my time, materials and labor are worth. Over the past 10+ years, I've raised/dropped certain prices about every other year. You aren't going to get rich rigging, but you should be compensated appropriately for the service you provide...and forget about the change in the cycle. If you want to increase your rigging work during the change, just concentrate on doing an even better overall job to your customer's gear so they'll always come back and recommend all their friends to use you as well. Done... MikeChutingStar.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Titanman2789 0 #49 May 23, 2007 QuoteQuote I dont think with the change to 180 repack cycle the demand line will shift from point 1 to point 2 on your graph. It will simply decrease along the original demand line, causing an increase in price and a surplus of riggers available for work I have since looked at a couple of web sites explaining the supply-demand theory. The curves denoted by D1 or D2 are constant demand lines. They are contour plots of demand. That means, in mathematical terms, that at any point on D1 or D2 the demand is the same. Likewise, for the supply lines. So your comment of "It will simply decrease along the original demand line", with 'It' refering to demand, makes no sense to me. If 'It' refers to supply, then prices would go up when the supply of riggers decreases. That will probably happen, but not right when the rule gets changed. . There are different ways for the graphs to change. The point on the demand line can move along the line as in the first attachment or the entire line can shift (second graph). On both graphs the price increases. Now yes, if the demand line has a decreasing shift where the entire line moves, prices will decrease. A change to a 180 day repack cycle will not cause a shift though, only a decrease along the line from point 1 to point 2 (in the first graph) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 May 23, 2007 QuoteI'm all for the 180-day cycle, and even better would be PD's proposed 1-year cycle. When it comes down to it, it's all about how well the owner takes care of their gear. The owner can make it unairworthy after 1 jump or it can come back to you after a couple of years in perfect condition. Educating the jumpers/pilots of interim inspections of their gear between required inspection/repacks is key. Nice post, I just quoted one part, but I agree with the whole thing. My riggers take great care of my stuff, and show me ways to keep mine cared for too. One charges more than typical, but his care is also better. So is what I learn from him. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
