I&R Price - Raising yours if we go to 180 days?

[councilman24 36]

Okay, riggers, I've asked this at PIA meetings and have had numerous discussions about this. I'm very careful to only ask as a survey there and here and not to violate anti-trust laws by discussing pricing.

The question is if we go from 120 days to 180 days as proposed will you raise your price?

Some comments I've heard.

"It's no more work for the basic I&R so no, I won't raise my rate."

from a skydiver " I budget for 3 pack jobs a year now so if the rate goes up to the same total for a year that's fine with me."

"It's good for 50% longer so I should get 50% more."

"Most customers only get it done once or twice a year anyway. This might encourage them to keep it in date and result in the same number of pack jobs. So not going to raise my rate." (midwest cold climate)

I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm actually considering going up by less than 50%. The skydiver/pilot will get better value (more days per $) and I won't eat all of the decrease in pack jobs. Most of the riggers have actually said they wouldn't raise their rate. We'll see if they stick with that.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[IanHarrop 37]

I am a Non-Rigger and I think may be one choice is missing from your poll.

Based on "supply and demand" shouldn't the price go down as riggers compete for my business considering demand for their services will go down?

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[councilman24 36]

Hey, I like the go up by MORE than 50% option.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Based on "supply and demand"

why should common sense play in here? - this post is about price fixing

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DeNReN 0]

I find it odd that this question is even being asked...the process of the I@R remains the same...why would the price increase?

I am a master mechanic.....I charge the same to put cheap brake pads on a car as I do the expensive ones that last longer......

I can just imagine what my customers would say to me if I told them that I was charging them more labour because I was installing pads that last longer

[mktoson 0]

I do agree. The amount of labor will remain the same so prices shouldn't go up. But honestly I would pay more per repack for the convenience of not having to take it to a rigger as often.

So far, this is the oldest I've ever been.

[AndyMan 7]

The laws of Supply and Demand dictate the price for an I&R should go down, strangely.

The demand of jumpers asking for them will decrease, while the supply of riggers wanting the work will stay the same.

Generally, I'm a big believer in supply and demand. It is a very good way of estimating how prices will move. All things being equal, I never bet against it.

I doubt very much that riggers who try to increase their prices will get very far. I suspect that those that do will get a lot of pushback from jumpers who are more then happy to take their rigs elsewhere.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[councilman24 36]

If your main source of income was replacing brake pads and because new pads lasted longer your income dropped by 33% but your fixed costs stayed the same and your desired profit margin remained the same, would you feel you needed to raise your hourly or fixed price rate for brake pads to remain profitable?

This question has been asked for 15 years. Actually longer since a similar situation occurred in 1978 when we went from 60 days to 120 days.
I'm not advocating one position or the other. There really are people of different minds. I'm wondering what people really do think and hopefully this anonymous poll will help.

And yes this is controversial. Maybe it should be in S.C.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

First, I should make it clear that I am posting this poll as an individual, not as a representative of PIA. When I have my PIA hat on I sign the post that way.

Second this is not about price fixing. This about wanting to know the real opinion of riggers and jumpers. I've heard every option, except go up by more than 50%, supported and argued. I've heard people say that if it went to 360 days I might have to stop rigging because of the lost income.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Ahh but the supply of riggers may very well go down if they can't stay in business with lower income.

In some areas riggers are hard to come by and an alternative may not be convienent. Also, for some jumpers it not just any rigger that they are willing to use, it's an experienced or perceived "better" rigger. That supply is even lower.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[BKR 0]

In France, when we moved to a one year cycle, prices increased from 30 to 40%. So, it might be the same,no?

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[councilman24 36]

Thanks for your reply. I was curious about what happened in other countries. What was the time period before 360?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[BKR 0]

If my memory still working, it was 4 months, but I am not sure.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[sunshine 2]

My price will remain the same. Of course i hardly ever charge my friends anyway.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[DeNReN 0]

Quote

If your main source of income was replacing brake pads and because new pads lasted longer your income dropped by 33% but your fixed costs stayed the same and your desired profit margin remained the same, would you feel you needed to raise your hourly or fixed price rate for brake pads to remain profitable?

If I had a fixed customer base...raising prices would be necessary....however I do not have a fixed customer base...so better products installed generally increase the overall profit margin by allowing to me to increase my customer base and keep all happy with a better longer lasting brakes

[headoverheels 291]

Quote

Ahh but the supply of riggers may very well go down if they can't stay in business with lower income.

The supply of many professional jobs has gone down as the demand has dropped. Riggers in some locations will find that they need to expand their range of services (outside skydiving) to maintain the same level of income.

[jheadley 0]

I think a 50% price increase would just mean that riggers will finally get paid what they deserve.

40-50 bucks for a reserve repack is pretty lame considering an I&R takes me 3-4 hours, and I can make 50 bucks in under an hour of main packing, with much less training and responsibility.

Do people really give their last chance at life to the lowest bidder?

[DougH 270]

Although I would be *willing* to pay more to make sure my rigger stayed in business I would rather not if the only reason is that demand is dropping. Repacks being undervalued is a different topic all together.

What about instead of raising the price they could offer a partial inspection and mant. mid way though the 180 day cycle.

Maintain the three ring system, check it over, change the closing loops.

I don't think a lot of jumpers do those things on their own. I know my rigger has mentioned that he can tell during a I&R that these things are not being done.

Extra source of cash, and it might keep knuckleheads from letting their cutaway cable go uncleaned for 180 days straight!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed!

[riggerrob 558]

Barry MacAuley asked me the same question in 2000, just before Canada switched to a 180 day repack cycle.
I replied: "I don't care, because I will make more money off of repairs."
While I&Rs may be my bread and butter, I make most of my profit off of repairs: frayed bridles, tired Velcro, loose grommets, etc.
The rate of damage within reserve containers is still in the on percent range.
So now I make slightly more money off of small repairs, and since I am one of the few FAA Master Riggers/CSPA Rigger Bs - with a fully-equipped loft - I am one of the few riggers in British Columbia who can do most repairs, ergo customers send me work from as far away as Manitoba.
In the end, I&Rs were never profitable, but I make more money repairing harness/containers.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I've heard every option, except go up by more than 50%, supported and argued. I've heard people say that if it went to 360 days I might have to stop rigging because of the lost income.

So, my opinion. With the repack cycle increasing to 180 days (hopefully to a year someday), I think the supply and demand will cause some riggers to go do other things.

The ones that survive will charge more, but should also do more.

I&R will include more than the reserve, also the main inspection if not the repack, more general maintenance, and continued excellent followup with the customer in terms of overall rig maintenance and not just the reserve packjob plus AAD preventative maintenance. Small repairs (velcro, bag trim repair, cleaning up the PC bridle stitching, etc, would be part of the cycle, not added costs.) Nickel and diming for repairs would be a source of aggravation, but necessary - however, the rigger than offers "overall care at the biannual" instead of that model would be worth his weight in gold to skydivers.

In other words, those really good riggers that do this kind of thing already, and are already charging a premium for it, will likely be unaffected and continue to get business.

And, there will still be market for the business of those that just want the cheapest repack they can find. But those skydivers better learn to look at their gear with a more critical eye as they'll be even more responsible for their gear now (as they should be all along).

Sorry about the "price fixing" comment, I just see those types of posts so often on these forums. Coming from what is essentially "private contract" type work, I think that's a terrible road to go down.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Okay, riggers, I've asked this at PIA meetings and have had numerous discussions about this. I'm very careful to only ask as a survey there and here and not to violate anti-trust laws by discussing pricing.

The question is if we go from 120 days to 180 days as proposed will you raise your price?

Some comments I've heard.

"It's no more work for the basic I&R so no, I won't raise my rate."

Exactly.

Quote

from a skydiver " I budget for 3 pack jobs a year now so if the rate goes up to the same total for a year that's fine with me."

Must be a NG. Whoever heard of a skydiver with a budget?

Quote

"It's good for 50% longer so I should get 50% more."

So if I have to use my reserve at the 30 day mark, do you reimburse me for the 60 days your pack job was not longer in effect?
So if I have to use my reserve at the 60 day mark, do you reimburse me for the 30 days your pack job was not longer in effect?
I think we all know the answer to that one.

Quote

"Most customers only get it done once or twice a year anyway. This might encourage them to keep it in date and result in the same number of pack jobs. So not going to raise my rate." (midwest cold climate)

Most jumpers will probably try to time their first of the year repack with the weather.

Quote

I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm actually considering going up by less than 50%. The skydiver/pilot will get better value (more days per $) and I won't eat all of the decrease in pack jobs. Most of the riggers have actually said they wouldn't raise their rate. We'll see if they stick with that.

Well, I'm thinking of creating a rigger's coop. Sort of like a gym with all the exercise equipment.
You pay a monthly or annual fee to come and use the equipment when you want.

One more comment that you did not list is from a DZO type
***I'm swamped with rigging alone. If the repack cycle gets extended, then I'll have more time to do other DZO type things and have less time spent on repacks.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[fcajump 153]

Quote

I think a 50% price increase would just mean that riggers will finally get paid what they deserve.

40-50 bucks for a reserve repack is pretty lame considering an I&R takes me 3-4 hours, and I can make 50 bucks in under an hour of main packing, with much less training and responsibility.

Do people really give their last chance at life to the lowest bidder?

THANK YOU!!
(you saved me a lot of typing... )
Besides... my wife would love for me to have less work to do... She's been bugging me for years to charge by the hour.
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I think a 50% price increase would just mean that riggers will finally get paid what they deserve.

So what? I don't know a single person that wouldn't like to get paid more for what they do.

supply and demand - you want more? do more or do it better enough than others that the demand recognizes it, or do something else

or, charge more and see if your customers are willing to pay it - it's not like the government is forcing you to charge what you do

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[headoverheels 291]

Quote

40-50 bucks for a reserve repack is pretty lame considering an I&R takes me 3-4 hours, and I can make 50 bucks in under an hour of main packing, with much less training and responsibility.

Then it looks like you should be packing mains. I don't think it takes my rigger 3-4 hours, or two hours either, but he has been at it a long time. OTOH, I've packed 3500 mains (mine) and am still not fast enough at it to make it worthwhile.