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skyblu3

Assembling Toggles

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Just got my canopy back from PD after a reline and I am having trouble assembling my toggles. For some reason I assumed that PD would put the loop in the control line to pass the toggle through.

PD recommends (both via email and per their manual) to make a loop and tie an overhand knot in the line. I have tried this but I have a few questions. Is the knot supposed to cinch up and be really tight? That's what I assume but this does not seem to happen. If I pull on the loop after tieing the knot I can make the loop bigger and bigger? Is this because I have tied the wrong kind of knot? An overhand knot is pretty simple so I am not sure that's a factor. Or is it because the lines are new and slick? What if I doubled the knot?
When the line is pulled through the toggle it's much more secure but it still doesn't sit well with me.
I know the best thing would be to get a rigger to fingertrap a loop but I don't have access to riggers where I live. I will get it done sometime but for now I would like to start jumping as is so I really want to figure this out.

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I did a search and found numerous threads with pictures.
Just search toggle's.
Try this : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2437332;search_string=toggle's;#2437332 [/url]
“It takes ten years to get ten years’ experience” Eric "tonto" Stephenson D515 PASA

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It will take your rigger less time to show you how to do it correctly than it would take to describe it here, and since you need to have your work checked before you jump it anyway...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

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Yeah i did search the forum before posting but there is no real answer to my question. Some people say use a bowline knot others speak against it. The manual says tie an overhand knot, I'd rather stick to the manual.

Gary73 with regards your comment...sure I'll have a rigger check it but I want to learn to do it myself. Besides if I show up at the DZ and the rigger tells me that everything is installed correclty then I dont need to waste time on the ground with gear issues. I don't live near a dropzone so when i do finally get out to one I wanna jump!

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Just got my canopy back from PD after a reline and I am having trouble assembling my toggles. For some reason I assumed that PD would put the loop in the control line to pass the toggle through.



It's good that PD didn't put a loop in the line for you and bar tack it... that would have limited you to 1 toggle setting. This way you get to find the correct setting for you.

Overhand knot works great if you tie it correctly, but from your description of slippage I think you may be using only 1 end of the line for the knot, and tieing it around the other end (wrong). You should be holding the 2 ends of the line together like this: ======= then tie an overhand knot using both at the same time so that it ends up looking something like this: ===\\===

See the images at the very bottom left corner of page 10 in this PDF:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/MAIN.PDF

After the overhand knot's been tied correctly the loop will remain the same size... it won't cinch down tight and it won't get bigger if you pull on it.

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It's good that PD didn't put a loop in the line for you and bar tack it... that would have limited you to 1 toggle setting. This way you get to find the correct setting for you.

Overhand knot works great if you tie it correctly, but from your description of slippage I think you may be using only 1 end of the line for the knot, and tieing it around the other end (wrong). You should be holding the 2 ends of the line together like this: ======= then tie an overhand knot using both at the same time so that it ends up looking something like this: ===\\===

See the images at the very bottom left corner of page 10 in this PDF:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/MAIN.PDF

After the overhand knot's been tied correctly the loop will remain the same size... it won't cinch down tight and it won't get bigger if you pull on it.



Parachutist......Thanks for you reply. I have looked at the manual dozens of times but I find that diagram difficult to understand. I think what you said solves my problem. I will have to experiment tonght when I get home.

I was tying the knot by making the loop with my thumb and index finger and then tying the end of the line around at the bottom of the loop. I will try with the way you said.

Thanks again. If it works I'll post some pics.

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Yup...you were tying a slipknot.

The attached pic should help....


__________________________________________

That's a real good picture of the 'proper' knot. I like to finger-trap the excess line and just 'tack' the line with 2-turns of 'E'-thread. That keeps the excess from slipping out of the finger-trap.


Chuck

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Thanks everyone for your help. I got it done, my knot tying was wrong. With all the help from you guys that posted I managed to do it textbook.

The only thing now is that I'm left with 12 inches of excess line. It's seems like a lot to leave trailing behind my toggles. Having excess line doesn't really bother me as I've never had it fingertrapped on any of my canopies but I have never had this much. Do you think I can cut off about 7 inches and leave 5 inches excess. If I have to adjust my brake line I am most probably going to have to shorten it I assume. The way I see it is that I dont need more than 5 inches excess. What do you guys think??

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Yup...you were tying a slipknot.

The attached pic should help....


__________________________________________

That's a real good picture of the 'proper' knot. I like to finger-trap the excess line and just 'tack' the line with 2-turns of 'E'-thread. That keeps the excess from slipping out of the finger-trap.


Chuck



Chuck, a question
I too hand tack the finger trap to keep the line in. I use the light super tack instead of E thread. I considered E but I thought the smaller light tack thread would be less abrasive on the spectra should some force get applied somehow. What do you think?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Ok, just to simplify things as I am not a rigger but I feel I have quite a good understanding of gear.

So you are saying I should finger trap the line from the brake setting mark and use the loop of the finger trap as the loop to pass the toggle through and then tie it off with a knot. So in essence it is sort of like making a closing loop for the main container (which I can do) but at the end of the brake line instead.

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First, all the above advice is correct unless your lower control lines are dacron; if you have the bigger dacron control lines, the knot will be so huge there are better ways to attach toggles. But, assuming you do have spectra or some other small line as your lower steering lines, maybe this will help...

First, remember that whenever you finger-trap excess line inside itself, you will be making the finished length considerably shorter. So, if you have a factory mark that is the recommended distance from brake loop to toggle, you will need to make a new mark (or "imagaine" one) about an inch lower than the factory mark if you are going to finger trap several inches of excess. And secondly, remember this mark should be visible just above the toggle (towards the brake loop); it should not be in the loop or the knot you tie. If you finger-trap your excess before you form the loop and tie the knot, the knot will capture some of your finger-trapped excess line so no tacking will be required. The knot itself will secure the excess and it can't be pulled out if you do it this way. Conversely, if you finger-trap the excess after forming your loop, you'll have a little bit of exposed line that can be pulled out unless you tack it as mentioned by someone previously. And remember the whole reason for attaching the toggles in this manner is so you can easily change your knot in order to adjust the toggle distance to your personal preference. With most canopies, at full flight (with brakes released and toggles against the guide rings) there should be a slight bow in the control lines, and it should take "about" 4 inches of toggle pull to cause the tail of the canopy to begin to show deflection and start a turn.

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Fingertrap the line first. Make it so your finished line is about 3/8" or 1/2 longer than you wanted. Tie your overhand knot.

Now you have the proper length, and your fingertrap cannot come out unitl you untie the knot.



I understand that. What I was asking about was the line type to make a stictch in the finger trap to keep it from pulling out. Much like a bar tack does when making line sets.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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...What I was asking about was the line type to make a stictch in the finger trap to keep it from pulling out. Much like a bar tack does when making line sets.


If you finger-trap the line BEFORE tying the overhand knot, no tacking is required, as the line is captured within the knot and cannot come out. This is by far the best way to do this. It just requires a little trial-and-error to get it firgured out so it ends up the right length after you form the loop with your knot.

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It's a little more complicated than I thought.

My lines are spectra and yes I have a factory mark on the brake line. The manual shows that I should have the mark just outside the knot. I don't understand why I would need to move the mark (or make a new mark) because I am going to fingertrap the excess line. I can fingertrap the line into itself about 1 inch above the mark to form a loop. Then I can tie the knot below the loop and still have the mark just outside the knot. I can't see how this method will change the positioning of where the mark will be.

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...What I was asking about was the line type to make a stictch in the finger trap to keep it from pulling out. Much like a bar tack does when making line sets.


If you finger-trap the line BEFORE tying the overhand knot, no tacking is required, as the line is captured within the knot and cannot come out. This is by far the best way to do this. It just requires a little trial-and-error to get it firgured out so it ends up the right length after you form the loop with your knot.



I am sorry if my post was confusing. I understant and I do make the knot before the finger trap. But as Chuck stated, to too use a couple of turns in the finger trap to keep it in place once the finger trap is completed. My question to him was directed more toward aceptable thread type to do the securing as to the knot or the finger trap itself.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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all this messing about got me thinking.

What if I fingertrapped the excess line after I make the knot and start a couple inces below the knot and then tie a second knot to hold the fingertrap in place.
It would solve the issues of line shrinkage, etc.. and that way I can have my toggles installed exactly on the factory brake setting mark.

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all this messing about got me thinking.

What if I fingertrapped the excess line after I make the knot and start a couple inces below the knot and then tie a second knot to hold the fingertrap in place.
It would solve the issues of line shrinkage, etc.. and that way I can have my toggles installed exactly on the factory brake setting mark.



Be careful. If you get a knot up away from the toggle it can catch in the metal ring. If it does that at an inopportune time I would get interesting.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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What if I fingertrapped the excess line after I make the knot and start a couple inces below the knot and then tie a second knot to hold the fingertrap in place.
It would solve the issues of line shrinkage, etc.. and that way I can have my toggles installed exactly on the factory brake setting mark.



Yes, you could have your toggles installed exactly on the mark.

No, your toggles would not be set at exactly the factory-recommended distance from the brake-set eye. Fingertrapping, knots, bartacks and other sewing all shorten the line.

Mark

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I don't understand why I would need to move the mark (or make a new mark) because I am going to fingertrap the excess line. I can fingertrap the line into itself about 1 inch above the mark to form a loop. Then I can tie the knot below the loop and still have the mark just outside the knot. I can't see how this method will change the positioning of where the mark will be.



Take a piece of spectra and make two marks 10 inches apart. Now finger trap a piece of spectra inside the first one the full length of the line between the marks. Now measure the distance between the marks. You think it will measure 10 inches? It will measure about 8 inches.

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