0
dweeb

What's the difference between containers?

Recommended Posts

I'm hopefully going to buy a first rig later this year I'm wondering what the difference is between a Mirage and an Infinity? Or compared to any other container?

How do you know the range of canopy size designed to pack into the container you have? If you plan on flying a specific range of canopies with one container, can you find one container that can fit that span?

And what size reserve will fit in the rig?

And how many jumps is considered the life span? How do you figure that out? Is there a certain of number of jumps after which you should be concerned with if considering to buy that container?

Sorry if I'm asking naive and often repeated questions, but I'm trying to figure out if maybe it would be better to buy individual items that I could work with and maybe buy a container and 210 reserve and work with a container that would take a 230 main for now but still be tight enough to hold a 190 in if I want to fly on my head.

Is that too much to ask?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will try and answer some of your questions. Both the Mirage and the Infinity are good rigs and both manufacturers have information on their web sites regarding container size and compatability with reserves and mains. This would be a great starting point.

Most containers can go up or down a canopy size with very little problems but when people try and put a canopy a little too big or a little too small in a container it can create a malfunction as the incident reports can attest. It certainly won't always cause a malfunction and many jumpers will continue to operate their gear outside of the recommended and tested configuration.
Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great info here. Articles by Lisa Briggs are particularly focused towards newer jumpers.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks.

Are there really any real differences then between a Mirage and an Infinity?

Other than the design?

Basically, here's my gig: I'd like to initially buy a 230 for a main, 210 for reserve, and a container that will let me downsize to at least a 210, preferably to a 190.

I can't seem to find the configuration I want as a complete system, so I'm trying to figure out if I can do it piecemeal and put together what I want and need.

Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Basically, here's my gig: I'd like to initially buy a 230 for a main, 210 for reserve, and a container that will let me downsize to at least a 210, preferably to a 190.
/reply]


contact the manufacturers with this info. they can give you the best answer on how they can build a container to fit your needs.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are differences in how they all fit your body, differences in how the reserve is opened, and differences in how the flaps cover the main and risers. Differences in tucktab systems, internal covers, etc.
Most important diff, IMO, is how it feels on your body, as you're the one wearing it. I tried on a lot of rigs at various DZ's, none of them exactly my size of course, and tried on a number of rigs at the PIA conference as well.
I ended up settling on a Rigging Innovations Talon FS because I like their features, and the fit. Slightly longer wait-time, but anything custom/good is worth waiting for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


Basically, here's my gig: I'd like to initially buy a 230 for a main, 210 for reserve, and a container that will let me downsize to at least a 210, preferably to a 190.



contact the manufacturers with this info. they can give you the best answer on how they can build a container to fit your needs.


This is what I was going to recommend. Or if you're looking for used gear - they can give you the size/model number of a rig that will best fit your needs (ultimately allowing for your planned downsizing), so you canstart scanning the classifieds on here. (You'll just have to be sure and ask the previous owner how big they are, to make sure the harness stands a chance of fitting you).

That's what worked for me (building it piecemeal), and I wound up with a rig that has all the features I want (including a main and reserve that 'm darn happy with), and fits me beter than any I've ever jumped.

(Of course, I can only say that from the ground, as the rig was finally completed 4 days after I broke both my wrists. But wearing it around the house, it's a darn good fit.) ;)
Signatures are the new black.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'm hopefully going to buy a first rig later this year I'm wondering what the difference is between a Mirage and an Infinity? Or compared to any other container?

How do you know the range of canopy size designed to pack into the container you have? If you plan on flying a specific range of canopies with one container, can you find one container that can fit that span?

And what size reserve will fit in the rig?

And how many jumps is considered the life span? How do you figure that out? Is there a certain of number of jumps after which you should be concerned with if considering to buy that container?

Sorry if I'm asking naive and often repeated questions, but I'm trying to figure out if maybe it would be better to buy individual items that I could work with and maybe buy a container and 210 reserve and work with a container that would take a 230 main for now but still be tight enough to hold a 190 in if I want to fly on my head.

Is that too much to ask?



I figure I'm qualified to help you out with most of those questions. I am most familiar with the Infinity, so my feedback will be based on that. For Mirage specific info, you should give them a call and make sure the same info applies to their rig.

Canopy Range and Sizing: The Infinity sizing is based on a 9-cell main. On the order form you write down what size canopy you intend to jump. Unless you specify in the special instructions that you want an "easy pack" or dont intend to downsize, the rig will be built so that your specified canopy is a snug fit, which should allow you to downsize to the next 2 smaller sizes, as long as you dont change between 9 and 7 cell canopies. *Always consult your rigger if you have a concern about how a canopy fits into a container. Different manufacturers differ in pack volume and climate can affect pack volume as well.

Reserve Size: You write down on the order form what reserve size you intend to jump and then a rig will be built around your specifications (within reason, see the container sizing chart for more info). For example: if you want to jump a 150 main, there are container sizes that accomodate reserves from 126 sq ft. all the way up to 218 sq. ft. You should really discuss this with your dealer for advice in choosing the correct size for you now and in the years to come.

Life Span: This is subjective. Most containers will last for damn near eternity if taken care of. As long as you're not jumping into harsh conditions (i.e. salt water) I dont see any reason you shouldnt be able to get more than 10 years life out of your rig, as long as you keep it maintained. Many rigs have lasted longer. Jump number is pretty irrelevant on a container.

Differences: That depends on who you ask. You'll get a different story from the average joe jumper, your dealer, your rigger, and if you call the manufacturer. I'll refrain from saying my standpoint, as I am biased. Just be sure to compare the options that are most important to you. Jump what you are comfortable with because you have to jump it :)
________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I always buy my containers from the guy with the really long beard. I've never regretted that. ;)




Quote

When you see a beard like that you know your in good hands. ;)



B|B| Yeah *thumbsup*



yea!
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have connections to a person involved fairly deep with both companies. I won't pull him into it, but basically, here is the bottom line that I have pulled out of every conversation about it:

The infinity will leave more $$ in your pocket than a Mirage. More $$ for jumps. Neither has a significant safety advantage over the other, but they fit will be slightly different, as they have different features as far as padding patterns and such...

I am no expert. I have jumped numerous infinity rigs, and they all felt great. Never jumped a mirage.

That is just my overall understanding of the situation.
It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As posted in 2004:
--------------------------
I look at containers as doing a specific task. From a purely construction point of view, instead of saying the Mirage is over-done I probably should have been more specific in saying this:

The design of the Mirage, because of the flap patterns and the design of the main riser covers among other things, they choose to produce increases the parts count that goes into the rig. Many of those are purely cosmetic and not necessarily functional. Higher parts count equals more sewing and construction time that has to be compensated for hence a higher priced rig.

Both Infinity and Mirage are bullet-proof rigs but the advantage from a construction point of view is that Infinity is more simple to make. Both rigs have more than adequate shoulder riser protection, both have reserve side internal riser covers, both have main closing flaps that stay put regardless of body position in the air and both a very popular with a broad spectrum of skydivers for those reasons.

Point here is that the features compared above have been streamlined and functionally simplified on the Infinity and/or integrated with other parts which cuts down the need for more parts and more sewing. Whether or not the Mirage or the Infinity is better than the other is aesthetics and what you consider a better rig.

A perfect example is the differences between the Mirage Riser and the Infinity riser.

On the Mirage riser there is a grommet for the closing loop of the 3 ring AND a separate part for the hard housing for the extra cutaway cable. Infinity has streamlined the design of most risers available including the Mirage risers and made both into one part but combining the hard housing with a grommeted end-fitting that also serves as the grommet for the 3-ring release. Less parts, less sewing, less expensive... same functionality.

Another example is where the Infinity has combined the reserve L & R closing flaps as the secondary internal riser covers. At last I saw, the Mirage had secondary riser covers that were extra parts sewn into the seams of the reserve flaps/sides. Again it's a matter of parts count and sewing as opposed to streamlining the same idea.

With all due respect to Justin and Jeff Johnston (Lead designer of the Mirage) Mirage has for the most part just ADDED features to the original rig instead of INTEGRATING them. The end result is ultimately a higher priced rig strictly because of the way it is constructed, the parts count, the complexity of how the features are added and the sewing time to make it. It is not because it's features are any better than Infinity or Javelin or any other rig on the market for that matter Jeff just chose to make the Mirage the way it is. Kelly at VSE on the other hand took a completely different approach to accomplish the same tasks and did it better, more cost effective and that is transferred to the customer buying the rig.

From the aesthetic point of view, everybody has their own idea of what looks good. Some think the way the Mirage looks is absolutely the most beautiful thing they've seen on the planet, while others think the Jav or the Infinity or the Vector is gorgeous. So if you are willing to spend another $500 on a rig for the aesthetics... go right ahead... it's your backside.... personally I would rather go jump and spend the $500 on tickets or tunnel time.
GraficO

"A Mind is a terrible thing to taste."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not a certified rigger nor am I an experienced skydiver … the replies below are simply answers I have received from research I have done to purchase my first rig. This information is offered only as FYI. Check all of this info out with a MASTER rigger and the original MANUFACTURER

I'm an unusual type of person .. for me the research to purchase something is kinda like foreplay .. it's almost as much fun as actuall buying that first rig.

Quote

I'm hopefully going to buy a first rig later this year I'm wondering what the difference is between a Mirage and an Infinity?[/Reply]

Go out to both web sites and create a spec for both containers. They both have detailed specs online. Look at the available options, look at the specs for size. I know Mirage does not make BIG containers but does that even apply to you ? Look at the way each container is actually designed, look at the way the closing pin covers are made, look at the way the riser covers are made. They all have closing pin covers and riser covers … Mirage has an exceptional design and uses exceptional materials to keep the covers stiff to prevent unintended openings. Look at the method used to stitch the harness ... ask questions like is there a difference in the way the stitching is done :o



Velocity Sports Equipment – http://www.velocityrigs.com/
Mirage Systems – http://www.miragesys.com/Home/DefaultHome.aspx

[Reply]Or compared to any other container?[/Reply]

Do the same thing for the other containers. Vector has the SkyHook but now it’s available on the Mirage also. Does a Skyhook matter to you ? Vector has introduced the magnetic riser covers .. do a little research on the differences you find :S

If you don’t know what these things are talk to a Master Rigger at your DZ or simply call the manufacturer and ask to speak to one of there riggers and ask some intelligent questions … like I’ve been comparing you container to brand xyz, can you explain the differences to me. More often then not they will be very pleased to tell you all the good points of there brand so call several manufacturers.

I did this same thing recently … I asked one of the Master Riggers what was the difference between the Vector-3M and the Mirage he uses and I was amazed at what I learned ..

Uninsured United Parachute Technologies – http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/
Strong Enterprises – http://www.strongparachutes.com/
Sunpath Products – http://www.sunpath.com/

You may want to also consider WHERE the manufacturer is located ... being here in Orlando, FL I have a BIG choice but RWS and VECTOR are actually located on the airport with the DZ .. and PD is right across the road. SunPath is less then a hours drive and STRONG is right here in o-town too.

If you live in NY and jump at "The Ranch" then it really does not matter if you want to have something changed or modified ... you have to pack it up and ship it to them and then back to you, shipping is expensive;)


[Reply]How do you know the range of canopy size designed to pack into the container you have? If you plan on flying a specific range of canopies with one container, can you find one container that can fit that span?

And what size reserve will fit in the rig?[/Reply]

Look on the website for the size specs. They usually have an example of what canopies will fit in what containers, if you have specific canopies in mind CALL the manufacturer with the Manufacturer, Model / Size and they will tell you what they will fit in and if they will fit. Not all 210 sq ft canopies are the same by any means .. you need to look at the specific Pack Volumes for each separate canopy. DO NOT try to guess .. call them.

As far as SPAN … it’s been my experience that you can usually go down ONE size but again CALL the specific manufacturer. I recently purchased my first rig, it came with a PD280 Navigator MAIN and a PD281 reserve. I called RWS and they were EXTREEMLY helpful, I asked questions like how much it would cost to re-fit the harness if I needed it to be, what size MAIN I could fly (one size) I could drop down to a PD260 in this case.


Remember your container is a very highly engineered piece of equipment …. It’s NOT a sail bag. It’s designed to deploy the canopies in a specific manner .. with a specific pressure … in this case SIZE does matter. Hang around the packing tent and watch the riggers re-pack for a while .. you will see the effort they use to hold the canopy / D-Bag in place while they are pulling the closing loop through and sliding the closing pin in place. Also watch how they re-pack each of the different containers ... and ASK questions


[Reply]Sorry if I'm asking naive and often repeated questions, but I'm trying to figure out if maybe it would be better to buy individual items that I could work with and maybe buy a container and 210 reserve and work with a container that would take a 230 main for now but still be tight enough to hold a 190 in if I want to fly on my head.



There are no naive or stupid questions .. only naive and stupid people and you don't sound like either.

CALL the MANUFACTURER … look at the sizing sheets but the 230 -> 190 is a BIG gap. It depends on the actual canopy you are wanting to use and the container itself .. not all 210's at the same !

DO NOT GUESS .. your life depends on itB|
99% of the people on this earth are sheep ... dare to be different

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One way to see the mechanical differences between containers is to pack them, in my experience. I typically pack three different brand containers now and if you have that opportunity you may find that you like one better than the others. Ask alot of questions of the riggers and packers around you. Then you can get an opinion from other than somebody trying to sell you something. B|


Just burning a hole in the sky.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0