Riggers - What do you do when you find a mistake?

[Scoop 0]

Hi,

I just wondered what you guys do when you come across a balls up with someones rig. Either an assembly issue or a reserve packing problem (like the thread about the packing clamp).

I've been pulled to one side a couple of times and advised that things were not as they should have been.

Whats your approach? If you find something dangerous do you always tell the owner or do you just rectify it and feel that maybe its better they don't know what danger they were in? Paticularly interested if the mistake was made by yourself on a previous inspection/repair/repack. I can see how the desire to keep quiet for credibility and business could be greater than highlighting a problem to the jumper (your customer)

I was going to make a poll but I guess every situation is unique and can be dealt with in its own way so can't really pigeon hole every answer but I'd be interested to see what the responses are.

No doubt when you discover a problem in someone elses work its great to point out the cock up!

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

No doubt when you discover a problem in someone elses work its great to point out the cock up!

I don't think so. Ideally we'd all be perfect and there would be no problems. I'm under absolutely no delusion that I am perfect. If another rigger found a problem, no matter how minor, I really hope they'd give me a call or have the owner of the rig let me know.... how else can I learn and prevent the same issue from coming up again?

Last weekend another rigger pointed out a cable housing that had shifted on my repack that needed to get put back. Took 2 seconds to fix, but I just didn't notice it. Though it would not have done anything at all from a functional stance, I appreciated being aware of missing it... one more thing to pay attention to as I try not to make the same mistake twice.

I'm a very very new rigger with only a handful of repacks for friends and have only seen 2 problems, both minor, from previous riggers... nothing that would have made a difference in the function in the event of the chop. I didn't say anything to the previous riggers, only to the owners of the rigs. One the owner already knew of the problem before bringing it to me (bent pin). The other required a repair to be made (patch), so I had to point it out to them to get permission to have it repaired prior to the repack.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skybeergodd 0]

Any problems I find get pointed out to the rig owner and the person who either caused the problem or didn't do a good inspection and missed something. Most riggers are very appreciative if you point something out and thats as far as it needs to go. I did have one major problem found before, the reserve was on the slinks incorrectly and not just a couple lines crossed but very badly done. Pictures were taken and another rigger was consulted. When I called the rigger who had done the assembly and pack job he was totally irate on the phone, so I took the next step and sent a report and the pics. to Oklahoma City. My thought about doing that was riggers(assholes) like him are eventually going to kill someone so just report them and let the FAA take the action of pulling their ticket.

[councilman24 36]

The PIA Rigging Committee Chairman (at the moment myself) has acted as intermediary in the past for serious errors. Of course PIA has no juridiction of any kind and acts only as an interested non biased party. We have a form on the PIA website with an action suggestion. http://pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/ts-116.pdf In reality this is rarely used but is available as a guideline. Some things are minor, differing interpretations of manuals, or differing training. (0ne example is a rigger who didn't understand the alternating folding of the bridle in the earlier Mirage manual.) These are often just pointed out to the rigger and discussed. Others of a more serious nature might be reported to the owner and the manufacturer. Very serious or recurrent errors can be raised to the FAA. I haven't been involved in a FAA enforcement action but I understand that rarely is action taken because opening the rig destroys the evidence of who actually created the error.

My personal threshhold is that if an error would have caused a fatality I'll call the Feds. (Molar strap left on canopy, links left open, temporay pin left in.) Luckily I haven't found anything that serious. I've found lots of minor and some more serious errors. Many from riggers who weren't open to comment or critisism. Others from riggers who were glad of the input.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fcajump 157]

Quote

Hi,

I just wondered what you guys do when you come across a balls up with someones rig. Either an assembly issue or a reserve packing problem (like the thread about the packing clamp).

I've been pulled to one side a couple of times and advised that things were not as they should have been.

Whats your approach? If you find something dangerous do you always tell the owner or do you just rectify it and feel that maybe its better they don't know what danger they were in? Paticularly interested if the mistake was made by yourself on a previous inspection/repair/repack. I can see how the desire to keep quiet for credibility and business could be greater than highlighting a problem to the jumper (your customer)

I was going to make a poll but I guess every situation is unique and can be dealt with in its own way so can't really pigeon hole every answer but I'd be interested to see what the responses are.

No doubt when you discover a problem in someone elses work its great to point out the cock up!

Depends on the Owner and problem as to whether or not I mention it to them (~50% of the time I have).

Depends on the rigger and the problem as to whether I go to the rigger, local DPRE, or MFG. (past experience: I have done all the above.) But I always do SOMETHING to get the word back to the rigger involved. (Usually calling the MFG is to confirm what I think I am seeing vs their instructions, and/or they were involved in some way.)

(the real "JW" )

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[popsjumper 2]

Not a rigger...just a jumper...

If a rigger found something wrong with the previous reserve re-pack, I would DEFINITELY want to know about it regardless of the severity.

My rigger, my money, my life...all MY choices and I cannot make intelligent decisions without information.

I would be extremely pissed if I found out about a problem from ayone other than the rigger who found it and covered it up. He/she would be getting no more of my business not to mention the bad press.

AND, I would love to think that you guys police yourselves stringently. You guys are on the front-line defense, right along with me, against major pain or death.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[steve1 5]

I've told this story before. I'm running out of stories, so I'll tell it again.

In the early 70's I packed chest pack reserves. To tell you the truth I'm glad I no longer have that responsibility. I still have a ton of respect for most riggers willing to do that job.

I'd like to say that I've never made a mistake rigging or that I'm a member of the super race and that I always do everything perfect. I can remember one mistake I made back then, that still haunts me.

I assembled a new chest pack reserve and I forgot the cross connector. This would not have been fatal unless one of the butterfly snaps came unhooked from the D-ring, (which does happen!). It would be like releasing one side of you canopy on openning.

The next day, while doing some deep thinking, I got to thinking about cross connectors, and wondering if I had put one on, because I could not remember doing that. I immediately drove out to our hangar and took this reserve apart. Sure enough....no cross connector. Noone had jumped this reserve yet, but it made me hate myself for being so careless.

Did I tell anybody.....Hell No! I didn't want anyone else to know what a worthless, no good, careless bastard-rigger I was.

If I did still pack reserves, you can bet I'd be using some type of reminder system to help me check and double check again. Every time I packed a reserve there after, this was on my mind.....Steve1

[JerryBaumchen 1,241]

Hi steve1,

I don't think any of us are perfect; I know I'm not. Things like the molar strap and the use of clamps make me more worried than in the old days and that 'worry' is what keeps me on my toes (I still cannot see how that clamp could get left in a container; must have been a very loose fit).

Back about 20 yrs ago a local jumper brought his rig to me for a normal repack. It was a 2-pin reserve container, Northern Lite with a round reserve. When I opened it up I found that the Locking Loop was worn more than I would use again. This Locking Loop was what they used in those days; it looked like a large '0' ring, circular in shape (I hope you can picture it). So I got some line sleeving and made a new one just like the original one & repacked the rig. Quite a few months later the owner came up to me all concerned about the fact that I had made up this style of Locking Loop for his rig; this was just at the time most rigs were going to a Locking Loop that was something that looked like a straight piece of sleeving with a finger-trapped loop on each end (the loops on the ends being about 1/4" long). He said that later he had taken his rig out to the dz at Molalla for another normal repack and he could not pull the ripcord. He also said that one other jumper there had stood on his rig and by pulling with everything he had, could not get the ripcord to budge. Well, of course I am in total shock, thinking what in the world could I have done to result in something like this (obviously, he would have gone in had he tried to use the reserve). By now I am all apologetic, at a loss for words, ready to turn in my Rigger's ticket, etc, etc, when he tells me that I had not actually packed this total, it was someone else who had done this 'totaled' repack (a rigger infamous for sloppy pack jobs), but he was mad that I had made a Locking Loop in the '0' ring shape. He said that when he had pulled the handle on my repack it worked just fine but he didn't like this Locking Loop. Now my mind is really reeling as to 'What in the hell is he trying to say' and I'm trying to digest all of this and get back to my senses and, finally, trying to decide if I should just strangle him right on the spot or not.

I will never forget that moment.

I decided then and there that I would never pack another rig for him again; and I think we both like it that way.

I have always believed that you can take me out into the street and hang me for what I have done but don't ever give me any crap for what I have not done.

Jerry

[rehmwa 2]

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'What in the hell is he trying to say'

He didn't like your locking loop, though he considered it harmless, he wanted to know if you were doing anything different.

On a completely different topic - He got sidetracked by a story about another issue that had a lot more impact on him. And he told the story poorly or you weren't really listening.

Bad communication is a bitch ain't it?

I'd want to know about mistakes from my rigger. Not mistakes during the process, but anything that gets signed out and goes out for use. Whether he created them or found them. I think my riggers would do that. And if they made a mistake and was able to tell me, I'd stick with them even more as they are being adult and wouldn't make one like that again. If they cover it up, then their goal is to forget about it and pretend it didn't happen. That's not in the interest of my safety at all.

If I ever find out my rigger discovered a serious mistake on my gear and didn't tell me, I'd never use him and I'd make sure as many jumpers knew about it so they can decide for themselves.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[fcajump 157]

Quote

I've told this story before. I'm running out of stories, so I'll tell it again.

In the early 70's I packed chest pack reserves. To tell you the truth I'm glad I no longer have that responsibility. I still have a ton of respect for most riggers willing to do that job.

I'd like to say that I've never made a mistake rigging or that I'm a member of the super race and that I always do everything perfect. I can remember one mistake I made back then, that still haunts me.

I assembled a new chest pack reserve and I forgot the cross connector. This would not have been fatal unless one of the butterfly snaps came unhooked from the D-ring, (which does happen!). It would be like releasing one side of you canopy on openning.

The next day, while doing some deep thinking, I got to thinking about cross connectors, and wondering if I had put one on, because I could not remember doing that. I immediately drove out to our hangar and took this reserve apart. Sure enough....no cross connector. Noone had jumped this reserve yet, but it made me hate myself for being so careless.

Did I tell anybody.....Hell No! I didn't want anyone else to know what a worthless, no good, careless bastard-rigger I was.

If I did still pack reserves, you can bet I'd be using some type of reminder system to help me check and double check again. Every time I packed a reserve there after, this was on my mind.....Steve1

I've torn out more than one repack the next day for this kind of overnight concern. If I can't sleep, it comes out. Haven't found anything wrong yet, but I believe in the inner voice. Glad you listeded to it!!

Nearly paniced when my tool check came up short one day, until I could lay my hands on the missing items (in place on another repack that was interupted and awaiting a part).

I use an inspection check list and tool checklist.
If time permits, I also seporate the assemble process from the inspection process. (put it together, pack other things, then pick it up fresh for inspection & repack) That way I am less likely to see things correct when in fact they aren't.

Best to you,
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[steve1 5]

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. Things like the molar strap and the use of clamps make me more worried than in the old days and that 'worry' is what keeps me on my toes
[/reply
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That's a good point. I can't think of many tools or methods in the old days that would cause problems. There was a tool to keep your lines straight, but I don't think any rigger could leave that in your pack job. There was a rod for holding your pilot chute against the kicker plate, but that too would be almost impossible to leave in if it was long and had some flagging on it.

I really don't know much about packing back type reserves. The more reserves that I see packed today, it does kind of scare me. It would seem really easy to forget a clamp or molar strap.

When I went through training, I don't think I was even taught to count my damn tools. Reserves then were a different animal than today.

There also seemed to be a lot more riggers around back in the 70's. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because the training today is more involved, expensive, and time consuming than back in the olden days. I'm sure most riggers today are better trained than most of us were back then....Steve1

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[ryan_turner 0]

It really depends on what type of mistake it was. With one exception, I only repack my own rigs. But the one time I opened up someone elses rig to repack, the slinks were not tacked down. Something like that should be done, but I didn't feel the need to tell the person or try to track down the previous rigger. I just tacked them down and repacked the rig. If I had found tools in the pack job, that would be different.

[hajnalka 0]

If it's serious enough:

I contact the manufacturer, the owner, and the previous rigger.

In that order.

-D