Quasar II's with steel flap springs grounded

[porpoishead 5]

on saturday morning april 21st 2007, I pulled my reserve handle witnessed by three riggers at my DZ and video, resulting in the same exact scenario that occurs in the video that terry urban posted in this thread. A FAILURE OF THE RESERVE PILOT CHUTE TO CLEAR MY CONTAINER.

number of jumps on this container 52 total D.O.M nov 2006

I put my rig on, in a ready to jump configuration for the inspection. then activated my reserve by pulling the reserve release handle. the results, the reserve pilot chute did not clear the pack tray, the bottom coils of the spring became trapped between the two side and bottom flaps.

while many can argue that in frefall having a portion of the pilot chute out of the container would most likely catch air and clear the container.

sorry fellas that dog dont hunt.

this is simply unacceptable. when I pull my reserve handle I want to have confidence in the system to deploy my reserve, not "maybe it will clear"

what about an unconcious cypres fire at 750ft will the pilot chute clear in time to deploy my reserve?

who's going to pay for all my resrve repack fees that I incur throughout this modification process?

how could I have confidence that what I get back from strong enterprises is going to be a functional reserve deployment system ?

what if I dont care for the modification, or is a system that I deem unacceptable, or that I would not want to jump or would ever have purchased in the first place??

is this going to be a tough this is what you get wether you like it or not situation, or will strong enterprises do right by their customers?????

alex.f
52 jumps from altitude without a dependable reserve.
strong enterprises customer/quasarII jumper

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[hajnalka 0]

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1) Are we talking a kicker flap or a kicker plate? There was speculation at my DZ this past weekend that it was going to be a kicker plate, as in another loose thing to hunt down after a reserve deployment and/or buy a new one. Seems like a kicker plate would be a step "backwards" in time?

2) Re... new PC with a smaller bottom diameter... a smaller bottom, or smaller top and bottom?? Tapered spring? Other mfgr's use them and I've had reserve rides on their systems, so, obviously, they work, but their packing instructions usually perscribe stuffing the pilot chute material inbetween the coils as you compress the spring, otherwise "spring lock" can occur. I've also found these style springs more prone to "slipage".


What is your and DualHawk's (Storng's ??) 2 cents on #1 & #2???

I'm not Terry or Tom , but -

#1 - According to Tom, they're adding a kicker flap.

#2 - It seems to me that a graduated springs (with coils starting out small and increasing in diameter, like a Jav) give good launches with all the fabric and mesh out. The non-graduated, non-'tapered' springs scare me re: spring lock, esp. if the PC material is not stuffed between the coils. You have to get them to "stack" so that the lower coils don't want to spring up over higher coils, thus trapping them. Talk about "slippage!" Whereas with a graduated spring, the coils sit neatly inside each other.

This is all assuming the system has the closing loop going thru the center of the PC of course.

Hope this makes sense.

[billvon 2,394]

>what about an unconcious cypres fire at 750ft will the pilot chute clear in
>time to deploy my reserve?

Generally unconscious people fall back to earth; that would likely cause the PC to clear. (But no guarantees.)

>who's going to pay for all my resrve repack fees that I incur throughout
>this modification process?

I suspect you are! It should only be one additional repack. If you are close to your repack date anyway, it shouldn't be any additional cost.

>how could I have confidence that what I get back from strong enterprises
>is going to be a functional reserve deployment system ?

You could test fire it on the ground, or test jump the rig in the air (with a tertiary reserve.) The test fire is probably sufficient since you know how to duplicate the problem (RPC deployment with main in container.)

>what if I dont care for the modification, or is a system that I deem
> unacceptable, or that I would not want to jump or would ever have
>purchased in the first place??

Then you should call them and ask them what your options are. If you bought it through a reputable dealer you may have a few more options.

>is this going to be a tough this is what you get wether you like it or not
>situation, or will strong enterprises do right by their customers?????

Dunno! But I bet Strong does.

[porpoishead 5]

yeah, thanks bill

was putting that out in hope of getting a response from a strong rep. for all to read

my first repack was done about two weeks ago, so yeah thats a done deal.

and of course I am going to test fire the system when I get it back, it's the only smart thing to do, considering the circumstances.

the unconscios bit, i'm truly enlightened, always thought you held a boxman in perfect form all the way in conscious or not

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[johnny1488 1]

Wow, yours came out of the rig. The one we fired in the shop (and filmed) hardly opened, and then when it did, it didnt clear the flaps.

I'll post the movie when I get time.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[DualHawk 0]

Hi Tim,

I'm still on the road at the moment, but got a few minutes to go online, and wanted to repy to your post.

It's a kicker flap, not a kicker plate.
&
The new PC has a smaller bottom diameter.

I will be back in Orlando by Friday, feel free to give me a call at the factory, 407-859-9317, I'd be happy to discuss any other questions you may have with you. (You can also shoot me an email at [email protected])

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Tandem Dirtector
Strong Enteprises

[DualHawk 0]

Hi Alex,

I totally understand your frustration. As both a skydiver and Strong Enterprises employee, I will try to help as best I can.

I think the most important issue to address is your concern regarding

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how could I have confidence that what I get back from strong enterprises is going to be a functional reserve deployment system ?

For what it's worth, I can tell you, as an eye witness in freefall, that the reserve tray modifications to the Quasar II are absolutely functional. It was test jumped in the closed main container scenario identical to Terry's video. The test jumper? Mr. Strong.

I mentioned in an earlier post about Strong Enterprises commitment to our customers, and I think this is a great example of it. Despite a factory full of skydivers/test jumpers 100% willing to do the test jumps for the mod, Mr. Strong insisted that he be the one to test the new mod.

I think I can help address/answer your other questions as well, but I don't have too much time left at the moment, and I want to address them fully, rather than give you an abridged version here online. I will be back in Orlando Friday, give me a call if you can 407-859-9317, or shoot me an email at [email protected], and I will answer all your other questions.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Strong Enterprises

[sagan 0]

Hey Tom, thanks for answering my PM's and emails. I figured this might be a good general interest suggestion.


Would it make sense to take a video at Strong of a rig that came in that doesn't launch correctly and then another video of the rig opening with the modification and then post it here?

I know I for one would appreciate this, and I bet others would too.

P.S.
For the record I've had 3 repacks (no cutaways) plus the 1 from this time before sending it back, all with closed risers, closed main container and the only one not to fully clear was this last one. The others cleared but the launch was medium (2 to 3 feet or so at best). And yes riggers that were repacking it saw me launch those and didn't think much of it. I actually asked last time (ironically enough earlier this month) and was told that since it cleared the burble and didn't hang up time wise (it fired and hit the floor 2-3 feet behind me really quickly), that it was ok.

-Patrick

[Scubadivemaster 3]

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>who's going to pay for all my resrve repack fees that I incur throughout
>this modification process?

I suspect you are! It should only be one additional repack. If you are close to your repack date anyway, it shouldn't be any additional cost.

I am assuming that since I sent it to them with the reserve packed and closed, it will be returned in the same condition at no charge. For that reason, I did NOT pull my handles before sending it off.

[councilman24 36]

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Luckily reserve systems are fairly simple. Or at least they used to be.

Terry,

Thats a very brave and telling comment you make there. I too have wondered the same thing; maybe we're trying to "re-invent the wheel" too much here.

It's not a brave comment and it wasn't directed at Strong Ent. It's a general observation. When we didn't care about riser covers, when we didn't add AAD's or RSL's, when we didn't tie things to the reserve bridle (skyhook), when we didn't care how things looked, and even when they were in front where we could get at them, things were simpler. Better? maybe, maybe not. Probably not. But some changes have been good, some are yet to be proven, some maybe weren't so good.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Terry,
I do think it was a somewhat "brave" comment to make, but didn't want to make it seem to you, Strong or anyone else that it was directed as a gig towards Strong.

For what its worth, Strong is one of the mfgr's I've always been impressed with... some others, not so much, but I won't go there here.

I do think its a "brave" comment from the standpoint that there have been several "evolutions" in gear design the past 10 years or so that have (are) proving to be, lets say, "problematical." I'll be fair and caviate that with I say this as a user / senior rigger / outside observer & not a mfgr / designer.

Generally speaking, I refer to this as "over engineering"... highly contoured rigs, stiff rigs that "look good", very small rigs, oversewn corners, secondary riser covers, Magnetic riser covers, flinger reserve flaps, Skyhooks, defacto RSLs, etc etc, all in and of themselves not bad things... buuuuut maybe, just maybe, causing new or exasherbating existing issues or potential issues due to combinations of circumstances that come up on products when they hit the field that don't come up in testing because all the possible combinatins of circumstnaces / how users will actully use things are too many to really test end-to-end.

Seems to me, these "advances" from gear mfgr's have come out every few years to a certain extent being "pushed" on the skydiving population.

I wonder if this, and other issues, will serve as a sign to some of the mfgr's that a "pause" may be in order to look harder and longer and take more time mulling over and testing things before the next "new improvement" goes out the door?

[porpoishead 5]

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>who's going to pay for all my resrve repack fees that I incur throughout
>this modification process?

I suspect you are! It should only be one additional repack. If you are close to your repack date anyway, it shouldn't be any additional cost.

I am assuming that since I sent it to them with the reserve packed and closed, it will be returned in the same condition at no charge. For that reason, I did NOT pull my handles before sending it off.

youre a brave man my friend.

I on the other hand, will not assume anything. I will get my rig back and test my system likely more than once. then have my rigger that I know and trust to pack my reserve.

assume is not a good word in skydiving IMHO

and to tim, that was a spot on post bro!

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Tom,

Thanks. At this point, I wouldn't want to take up too much of your time, so, I'll try to shoot you an email at the factory, but what I'd be interested in seeing as a side-by-side photo of your "old" spring/reserve PC with the "new" one next to it. Also, any changes to how the new reserve PC will be closed?



Also, just currious, but how goes it so far with Strong turning around rigs and getting them back out and in a "up" (jump-able) config?

Also, also, this question came up and if its answered up thread or in the SB, sorry for the redundant question, but the question came up amongst us riggers at my home DZ this past weekend, "How to we know a Quasar is in compliance and can be jumped post mod?"... yes, other then the note on the packing data care, is there any other way for us to tell?

[riggerrob 558]

Maybe "less is more" is the solution.
Has anyone looked at the French-made Advance OUT?
Hint: it has no side flaps on its reserve container.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Maybe "less is more" is the solution.
Has anyone looked at the French-made Advance OUT?
Hint: it has no side flaps on its reserve container.

Well, I'm not so sure, yet, that its back to "less is more" is what should be done, but we were debating it at the DZ this past weekend whether or not gear "got as good as it needed to get" in the late late 80s / early 90s... say circa 1989 - 1993. Since then some of the "styling" or "new for 199x" or "new for 200x" "improvements" have come with some baggage it seems?

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Rob,

I was on his website looking at that a couple weeks ago. It is a very interesting concept. And it definitely does simplify things substantially.

Right now I think the only problem with that idea in this country is that it is a foreign idea. Now if a yankee came up with it . . . . .

Jerry

[ericfradet 0]

Right now I think the only problem with that idea in this country is that it is a foreign idea. Now if a yankee came up with it .

=>you are right, the idea comes from the US, some rigger from Alabama initiated the idea and published the design in the skydiving magazine circa mid-90, the only thing this french manufacturer did was to copy the idea and patent it under his own name

[chutingstar 1]

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Right now I think the only problem with that idea in this country is that it is a foreign idea. Now if a yankee came up with it .

=>you are right, the idea comes from the US, some rigger from Alabama initiated the idea and published the design in the skydiving magazine circa mid-90, the only thing this french manufacturer did was to copy the idea and patent it under his own name

FWIW, actually it was a rigger in Georgia, Perry Thibedeau. The sides of the heavy-duty freebag were exposed with the "closed" reserve container.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[airtwardo 6]

It looks like they are making it a real Quick Turnaround.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[councilman24 36]

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Also, also, this question came up and if its answered up thread or in the SB, sorry for the redundant question, but the question came up amongst us riggers at my home DZ this past weekend, "How to we know a Quasar is in compliance and can be jumped post mod?"... yes, other then the note on the packing data care, is there any other way for us to tell?

We'll probably be able to feel (maybe see) the lack of the steel springs in the side flaps. Obviously anything with the steel still in it hasn't been serviced.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ericfradet 0]

FWIW, actually it was a rigger in Georgia, Perry Thibedeau. The sides of the heavy-duty freebag were exposed with the "closed" reserve container.

Mike
__________________________________________________
Thanks a lot for giving back the name of the real inventor to the skydiving world and sorry for my mistake

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Also, also, this question came up and if its answered up thread or in the SB, sorry for the redundant question, but the question came up amongst us riggers at my home DZ this past weekend, "How to we know a Quasar is in compliance and can be jumped post mod?"... yes, other then the note on the packing data care, is there any other way for us to tell?

We'll probably be able to feel (maybe see) the lack of the steel springs in the side flaps. Obviously anything with the steel still in it hasn't been serviced.

Yes, pretty much figured that.

I've been further wondering though if when things like this come around, if some sort of mod # or dash # change to the part number on the rig / harness' data lable whouldn't be better?

[DualHawk 0]

Hey Patrick,

That sounds like a great idea for a video, thank you. We have been flooded with rigs since Monday, so it may be a week or so before I can get to the video, but I will most certainly make one and post it on here for you.

Thank you for your continued support, it is very much appreciated.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[DualHawk 0]

Hey Tim,

No worries, that's what were here for. I just got back to Orlando, but will make sure I get that picture online for you here tomorrow of the 2 different reserve pilot chutes.

As for closing the container, the kicker flap goes on top of the reserve free bag (the first soft flap became the kicker flap), and it is closed in the same manner as before, (PC compressed on top of kicker flap). The other thing to note is that the Quasar II manual (page 30) states to "add 1/4" to closing loop lengths for Flinger equipped Quasar IIs. With the removal of the Flinger, the closing loop lengths for these containers will need to be shortened by that "1/4" inch. All loop lengths and the "1/4" for Flinger and AADs is noted on the same page. Any questions about loop length, just give us a call here at the factory.

The turn around on the containers has been really amazing. The entire factory is working together to ensure that we get the containers turned right around. Airtwardo posted a link above I believe (I'm not that good at clicky links), to our website www.strongparchutes.com, which has an online running total of rigs received, serviced and shipped. We received over 100 back already, and over half of those are already on thier way back to their owners.

As for modification verification (great question by the way), we are inserting a card with the packing data card verifying that the mod has been done on that specific container's serial #. We are also in the process of creating an online database on our website, it will be there indefinitely, that will list all Quasar II's that have been serviced in cronological order by serial #, so that any rigger, DZO, or skydiver can go online and verify if a specific container has been modified. We should have the list up within a few days, and updated weekly. We also welcome any rigger/DZO or skydiver to call us as well if they don't see thier serial number online to get a confirmation. (407) 859-9317.

Thank you for your continued support, it is very much appreciated.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[Hooknswoop 19]

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As for modification verification (great question by the way), we are inserting a card with the packing data card verifying that the mod has been done on that specific container's serial #. We are also in the process of creating an online database on our website, it will be there indefinitely, that will list all Quasar II's that have been serviced in cronological order by serial #, so that any rigger, DZO, or skydiver can go online and verify if a specific container has been modified. We should have the list up within a few days, and updated weekly. We also welcome any rigger/DZO or skydiver to call us as well if they don't see thier serial number online to get a confirmation. (407) 859-9317.

Good work.

Derek