Safety ratings for locations?

[MickeMe 0]

I am a complete novice and have not yet even chosen a location to learn to jump. I'm wondering if there is an objective rating place I may go to see SAFETY ratings for places I may learn to skydive?

[LouDiamond 1]

You can browse the Dropzone database here on this site. Look for DZ's close to your location and read what people have to say about their experiences at those DZ's and what kind of infrastructure is available. CLICK ME

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MickeMe 0]

I'm very, very surprised there's not an official body of some sort policing and rating these places. Weird the only rating we can get is anyone who goes on the site and says they've been there and "like the people and it seems safe"!!

[dragon2 0]

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I'm very, very surprised there's not an official body of some sort policing and rating these places. Weird the only rating we can get is anyone who goes on the site and says they've been there and "like the people and it seems safe"!!

You think skydiving is safe? You think skydivers do not police themselves, maybe have rules and guidelines in place? You think what may be safe for one (say a heads-up jumper with a few hundred jumps) may be equally safe for a student?

If you want "safe" pick another hobby. If you want to take responsibility, look out for yourself and make your own decisions, you're in the right place.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Your surprise probably comes from a preception that skydiving is a typical commercial service where the buyer relies on the vendor to keep them safe. Skydiving is different. It is a very hazardous sport. All the DZs do for experienced jumpers is provide an opportunity to exectute the sport. Certianly DZs should, and do, provide far more attention and effort into student operations, but even those operations remain very hazardous. Skydiving is NOT an amusement park ride!

If you are looking for a "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval... I suggest that you consider bowling or golf.


Rating DZs would make little sense, as the DZ cannot control the most important variable... jumper behavor.

Of course, the DZ can and should control the plane flight to get us to altitude safely.

USPA promulgates requirements and reccomendations for group member DZs. These are detailed in the USPA SIM. See it here:

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Will_Evo 0]

Thats the very kind of thinking that brought about censorship in music. This sport is so great because it is left totally to the jumper, and I am sure everyone would like to keep it that way.



-Evo

Zoo Crew

[billvon 2,396]

> I'm wondering if there is an objective rating place I may go to see
>SAFETY ratings for places I may learn to skydive?

No. USPA doesn't do much in the way of "rating" dropzones, although most USPA dropzones follow the BSR's which are standard safety/training guidelines. Several places do informal reviews of DZ's. There's a DZ review section right here.

But if you are asking for a more official and objective "Consumers Report" on DZ's, there's just not enough interest in that sort of a thing to make it worthwhile.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if you are asking for a more official and objective "Consumers Report" on DZ's, there's just not enough interest in that sort of a thing to make it worthwhile.

Even if there were interest, how could you do it? Seems like a classic case of GIGO.

[billvon 2,396]

>Even if there were interest, how could you do it?

Send a "student" to every DZ out there. Have them evaluate each DZO on objective safety parameters:

-size of LZ
-type/variety of student gear
-aircraft
-length of runway
-number of instructors with rating types and currency
-availability of ISP, coaching, canopy coaching etc
-training facilities (wind tunnel, hanging harnesses, creeper pads, mockups)
-fatalities vs. number of student jumps

Then also have a subjective opinion written by the student on the quality of the training they received.

[peek 20]

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>Even if there were interest, how could you do it?

Send a "student" to every DZ out there. Have them evaluate each DZO on objective safety parameters:

And then do that at least once a year to make sure the info is current. Sounds expensive and time consuming.

Yep, the OP may be thinking of Consumer Reports type of reporting where big money is on the line for a manufacturer of millions of widgets.

If there was that much money in skydiving we could solve a lot of problems.

[Chubba 0]

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Send a "student" to every DZ out there. Have them evaluate each DZO on objective safety parameters:

-size of LZ
-type/variety of student gear
-aircraft
-length of runway
-number of instructors with rating types and currency
-availability of ISP, coaching, canopy coaching etc
-training facilities (wind tunnel, hanging harnesses, creeper pads, mockups)
-fatalities vs. number of student jumps

Then also have a subjective opinion written by the student on the quality of the training they received.

Damn, I hope those guys don't come around to our tiny C182 DZ's on busy airports

We make up for it though by being extremely friendly

[crustySCSA69 0]

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I'm very, very surprised there's not an official body of some sort policing and rating these places. Weird the only rating we can get is anyone who goes on the site and says they've been there and "like the people and it seems safe"!!

rent the movie "Fandango" (it's old) ...
watch until you see the part with the typical student skydiving operation...
that should answer ALL your questions...

[pchapman 261]

Yes, there's just no organization out there that gets paid to check out drop zones across the country. There are FAA standards for aircraft maintenance, and those drop zones that are voluntarily part of the USPA are supposed to follow their rules, but that's as far as it goes.

A simple look at the number of accidents wouldn't help much, because they are few and far between, so the results will seem very random. Accidents to experienced jumpers who to a large extent do their own thing, don't necessarily say anything about the safety of the student program at a drop zone. For student accidents one would still have to distinguish between accidents that could relate to equipment and quality of training, vs. simply making bad decisions -- and a lot of skydiving accidents are human error. Sometimes one can relate that to a particular DZ's training or culture, but other times there's no way to do that.

The historical number of accidents at a drop zone will vary by the size of the drop zone and how long it has been in business. So you could easily have two essentially identical drop zones, one that has never had a fatality in 30 years, and another that has had two in the last 5 years.

There are different training methods in use for new skydivers, some drop zones using one or two methods, other drop zones using another one or two. Skydivers like to endlessly argue about these methods, but generally all will produce good skydivers, despite variation in focus and cost.

So what does a prospective student do?
It is nice to say that we live in a place where people are able to make their own choices, and that people should be informed consumers, but then skydivers tell prospective students "good luck with that!".

It wouldn't hurt if there were some guide to choosing a drop zone. Does the USPA have anything like that, beyond explaining the different training methods? To someone new in the sport one might have to be at a drop zone for a year before one starts to have the experience to tell whether there are some aspects of a drop zone that are a less safe than one would expect them to be, based on what other jumpers observe.

[peek 20]

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To someone new in the sport one might have to be at a drop zone for a year before one starts to have the experience to tell whether there are some aspects of a drop zone that are a less safe than one would expect them to be, based on what other jumpers observe.

And by then, the novice jumper will likely have been brainwashed by DZ management and staff to believe that "their" DZ is one of the best, and that they were trained in the "best" method and using the "best" techniques.

[MickeMe 0]

Actually, no, I'm not but I felt that way with a few of the responses. Thanks to all who answered my question with thoughtfulness, information, and web etiquette. To those who told me to do what I needed to do to keep MYSELF safe - that's what I was DOING! I was trying to steer myself towards a place that might have fewer accidents, injuries, or fatalities (proportionally) than another. To be attacked or belittled for asking a question is quite an interesting experience when those in this sport talk about having fun. No, I don't think skydiving is the safest sport out there, but I did assume people would encourage one to feel free to ask questions when I am supposed to be learning to keep MYSELF safe. Assuming made an ass of you and me. Is that the culture and atmosphere I should expect when attending a school to learn to jump? Don't ask questions, don't ask us to prove we are safe, do it yourself, and for God's sake, don't you know that having a death wish when jumping just adds to the thrill and fun of it all? Good luck to those of you who inspire an atmosphere of education and mutual support. And to those of you who were offended by an innocent, if naive question, I'm sorry and didn't mean to offend your delicate sense of self.

[pchapman 261]

Re: "Sorry I asked"

Yeah, on dz.com it is common to get a little slammed for whatever one says... and for whatever one leaves out as well. But there's still lots of good info here.

We still have the issue whether there is any guide for prospective students out there, that goes beyond explaining different training methods, to actually attempt to help someone evaluate the safety of an operation, despite the difficulty in doing so?

DZs do generally try hard to keep their students safe, but with limited resources some are a little better than others in different parts of the business.

In my area there are bunch of different drop zones. Skydivers can argue endlessly about which is better and what is safe enough, but luckily there are none that are bad, none that any skydiver would really hesitate to send their friends to.

[mnskydiver688 0]

Also, DZ.com is notorious for the "online" skydiver. People have this strange tendency to act much differently online than they do at the DZ. Don't worry, because you have money that you wish to spend at a dropzone they will treat you like a king.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm very, very surprised there's not an official body of some sort policing and rating these places.

Do you want Congress to pass a law requiring all sport parachute centers to provide safety data to the government, and for the government to compile an annual report of all that data?

Would this be good for other high-risk sports too, like motorcycle racing, boating, whitewater rafting, horseback riding and mountain biking?

Even if the government did all this, it would be subject to misinterpretation, and people who have never jumped before wouldn't know what it means.

The bottom line is this: Your first jump experience will be as safe as possible no matter which drop zone you go to. They're all interested in safety being of paramount importance.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Actually, no, I'm not but I felt that way with a few of the responses. Thanks to all who answered my question with thoughtfulness, information, and web etiquette. To those who told me to do what I needed to do to keep MYSELF safe - that's what I was DOING! I was trying to steer myself towards a place that might have fewer accidents, injuries, or fatalities (proportionally) than another. To be attacked or belittled for asking a question is quite an interesting experience when those in this sport talk about having fun. No, I don't think skydiving is the safest sport out there, but I did assume people would encourage one to feel free to ask questions when I am supposed to be learning to keep MYSELF safe. Assuming made an ass of you and me. Is that the culture and atmosphere I should expect when attending a school to learn to jump? Don't ask questions, don't ask us to prove we are safe, do it yourself, and for God's sake, don't you know that having a death wish when jumping just adds to the thrill and fun of it all? Good luck to those of you who inspire an atmosphere of education and mutual support. And to those of you who were offended by an innocent, if naive question, I'm sorry and didn't mean to offend your delicate sense of self.

buddy, you were hardly slammed in the responses. If that felt harsh, maybe you shouldn't pursue it, because the sport is sufficiently dangerous that your feelings will not come first.

The fatality rate for AFF level students is remarkably low, as well as for all non licensed jumpers. Certainly lower quality instruction could lead to deaths later, but you'll be in a better position to evaluate by then. Your best resource is a person you trust who can recommend a DZ to you. But I can't think of any effective way to impartially measure all DZs.

[crustySCSA69 0]

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... To those who told me to do what I needed to do to keep MYSELF safe - that's what I was DOING!

and keep doing it... that's the whole point

I was trying to steer myself towards a place that might have fewer accidents, injuries, or fatalities (proportionally) than another.

your basic problem here is that 'proportionality' means nothing in this game... places with about a bounce a year might actually be safer than places with no bounces in 10 years... it's all about volume and who was there to do the bouncing ..


To be attacked or belittled for asking a question is quite an interesting experience when those in this sport talk about having fun. No, I don't think skydiving is the safest sport out there, but I did assume people would encourage one to feel free to ask questions when I am supposed to be learning to keep MYSELF safe.

do not assume being new to this means you are a valued resource that people will treat with kid gloves ... this sport is saturated with 'black' humour ( the spell checker is objecting to the 'U' that's how it's spelled you lazy American spell checking bastards)
by all means ask questions, people who don't are idiots, just don't get upset by the occasional, and sometimes frequent, irreverent reply ... if you get into this to stay, you to will adopt the same attitude eventually...


Assuming made an ass of you and me. Is that the culture and atmosphere I should expect when attending a school to learn to jump? Don't ask questions, don't ask us to prove we are safe, do it yourself, and for God's sake, don't you know that having a death wish when jumping just adds to the thrill and fun of it all?

ask everything you can when on a jump course, you will actually gain some respect doing so, your original post was about safety ratings ... there is no such thing and many replies riff'd on that ... they were not in the least trying to disrespect you, you just have to make an effort to see where that comes from...


Good luck to those of you who inspire an atmosphere of education and mutual support. And to those of you who were offended by an innocent, if naive question, I'm sorry and didn't mean to offend your delicate sense of self.

again, brutal or not, the replies that upset you addressed your original post ... if you ever become a student and ask a million questions, get no reply at your dropzone and post that on here .... your replies will all be 'Go somewhere else, as fast as you can'
o0r 'they are ignorant bastards, come 'X' DZ where we like students trying to learn' etc .... these same people that dissed your post could be a font of valuable info for you... just not on that subject, because, it is basically immaterial....

quote from my first jump course
'we can teach you everything you need to know to handle anything that can go wrong... you can follow all those procedures perfectly ... and something can still happen that will cause you to die... if you can't accept that.. leave...."

no one did... the point being, hurtling at the ground at 110+ MPH is inherently dangerous, your original post makes little sense to anyone because pretty much EVERY DZ is attempting to make it as safe as they can for their students and this is borne out by the fatality rate for students sinking from about 50% of fatalities per year to about 5%, if that, over the last 20-30 yrs.

if a perfectly safe operation is your goal, do something else, if you want to know if an operation is reasonably safe, they all are, try any of them ... and as you learn more... you may decide you'd rather try somewhere else... but that's your call ..


and, really, check out the movie Fandango.... student parachuting at it's best ....

[jsaxton 0]

Nah, people won't REALLY start giving you shit until you have a license

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Is that the culture and atmosphere I should expect when attending a school to learn to jump?

[riggerrob 558]

"... EVERY DZ is attempting to make it as safe as they can for their students and this is borne out by the fatality rate for students sinking from about 50% of fatalities per year to about 5%, if that, over the last 20-30 yrs. ..."

......................................................................

The primary reason student fatalities dropped is because Mantas are far more reliable than (round) any student parachute built before.

Crusty, surely you remember the malfunction rate of T-10s at Waterville?

Sure improved containers and modernized teaching methods (anything other than military surplus screening methods) helped, but in the end student fatalities dropped because of more reliable main canopies.

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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Nah, people won't REALLY start giving you shit until you have a license [;)

This is true...