labrys 0 #76 March 31, 2007 QuoteYes, of course, obviously it depends a lot on circumstances "obviously" ? Humor me here. Under a grand when is it "obviously" not better to add nylon?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #77 March 31, 2007 I'm not saying it's a good idea, but a change in equipment can bring a change in best procedures. IF a skyhook (I said IF) gets the reserve out faster by cutting away than by firing the reserve under a low speed malfunction, AND it works reliably, couldn't it be a better option? A couple of RWS employees posted a while back that they would prefer to cut away in a situation like that than to fire the reserve into the mal... I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but just because it's not traditional doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #78 March 31, 2007 QuoteI'm not saying it's a good idea, but a change in equipment can bring a change in best procedures. IF a skyhook (I said IF) gets the reserve out faster by cutting away than by firing the reserve under a low speed malfunction, AND it works reliably, couldn't it be a better option? A couple of RWS employees posted a while back that they would prefer to cut away in a situation like that than to fire the reserve into the mal... I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but just because it's not traditional doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Dave I think any other approach is foolish dogma, IF is the big word here. RWS employees may be right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #79 April 1, 2007 QuoteI don't know if it's the right thing to do, but just because it's not traditional doesn't necessarily make it wrong. I can't argue that. Your position is very well stated.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #80 April 4, 2007 QuoteHow? With a skyhook the pilot chute will deploy the reserve if you pulled silver without chopping. The reserve bridle is slightly longer, but that's about it. Looking at the Vector 3 manual, a bridle with a skyhook is a total of 7+5=12 feet. A bridle without a skyhook is either 15.5 feet or 18.5 feet. For everyone who would chop below 1,000 feet with a skyhook, have you considered the possibility your skyhook may malfunction? One such possibility is that the RSL shackle accidentally got disconnected at some point since you last checked it. I know I've seen mine come undone without me noticing it several times before or during a jump. That's one of the reasons we always teach pulling silver after chopping regardless if an RSL is in use. If RSL's don't always work, neither does a skyhook. I like the idea of a skyhook in normal situations, but if you have a partial malfunction at a very low altitude that is providing a survivable descent rate, in my opinion you should either stick with the main or deploy your reserve without cutting away. The SIM tells us not to cut away below 1,000 feet but deploy the reserve without cutting away if there is a malfunction of the main. If you cut away below a certain altitude you are relying on the skyhook to save your life. If the skyhook doesn't work as quickly as you hoped, you may die when the malfunctioned main or the main and reserve both deployed could have saved you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #81 April 4, 2007 I agree with what you've said about chopping below 1000' but... the question you quoted was regarding why a skyhook makes a canopy transfer more dangerous. I'm still interested in hearing the answer to that question.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #82 April 4, 2007 My oppinion is that it could be so, since you're launching an entanglement and planing on it clearing.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #83 April 4, 2007 QuoteMy oppinion is that it could be so, since you're launching an entanglement and planing on it clearing. Isn't that true of any canopy transfer? What is it about adding a skyhook that you think makes the transfer more dangerous?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #84 April 4, 2007 Nope. In a canopy transfer there is no connection between the main and reserve. An entanglement may occur if the main is not relaesed soon enough.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #85 April 4, 2007 And isn't it true that in a canopy transfer you open your reserve before you pull your cutaway handle? That negates the skyhook. It disconnects when your reserve pilot chute comes off. You seem convinced that the skyhook adds danger, but you're not offering any technical reasons why it would.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #86 April 4, 2007 I said it adds danger to a canopy transfer, and I provided a reason why.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #87 April 4, 2007 Your reason applies to any rsl. what is is about the skyhook in particular?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #88 April 4, 2007 No they don't apply to the standard RSL. There is no direct connection between a standard RSL, and the canopy or deployment device.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #89 April 4, 2007 Okay. I'm trying very hard to understand your concern but your answers are very short and lack a lot of detail. Are you saying that you're concerned that you might cutaway your main before your reserve pilot chute is fully extended and the skyhook disengages?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #90 April 4, 2007 I'm saying things can fail to operate as predicted. I have no real beef with the SkyHook, just pointed out that there are some situations that have not been discussed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 0 #91 April 4, 2007 labrys, Think about this. The Skyhook is only 5’ from the reserve PC and it could take as much as 18 - 20lbs + to disconnect it. In a canopy transfer situation (not much air speed). I think you will tow that reserve PC some time before disconnect alone. Unless you can grab the reserve bridle and manually release it yourself. I do have many more reasons but no time. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #92 April 5, 2007 Quoteit could take as much as 18 - 20lbs + to disconnect it I must be missing something... why would it require that much force to disconnect the skyhook? Shouldn't it disconnect the moment the reserve PC is fired (as the bridle stretches out)? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #93 April 5, 2007 QuoteFor everyone who would chop below 1,000 feet with a skyhook, have you considered the possibility your skyhook may malfunction? One such possibility is that the RSL shackle accidentally got disconnected at some point since you last checked it. I know I've seen mine come undone without me noticing it several times before or during a jump. This is exactly what happened to RWS rep during the Skyhook demo (Blue Skies Egon!): "Yes that clown who got complacent was ME This actually happened while we were up at Rantoul last year. We have 3 rigs for doing this demonstration and I was doing a few a day and we were jumping on low passes like when we were socked in and the only aircraft flying was Ray's PAC and John's Helicopter. JC (RWS Production Manager) and I decided to both kit up with Skyhook Equipped Test Rigs and off we were in the heli for a 3grand hop and pop! Our intention was to both start spinning and break away together and bang what a nice show! Not quite - me being the clown I am at times do also make stupid mistakes and this is why we have AAD's, etc - for when we totally f@#k up!!! Well, upon gear inspection I did not check my RSL shackle and ensure it was connected - doo! Ok! Off we go and at 1000ft we decided to break away and shit - nothing has come off my back. I look back - nothing Looked at my silver and saw the swoop pond coming at me at a pace... pulled silver and in the saddle a little relieved and pissed at myself The thing that people were clearly able to see is 2 skydivers with the same simulated malfunction - one with Skyhook and one without it hooked up... Very clearly you can see now how effective the Skyhook is! Needless to say my buddy's watching were a little worried as it was low and they could clearly see what is going on, but the thing is at these altitudes you do not have time and this what the Skyhook does - it shortens the time between a fully inflated main to a fully inflated reserve! Complacent - yes I was and I did learn from it and I have made this one very serious part of my gear check! For those watching - this was a damn fine show of how well a Skyhook works and a rig without one works! The guys that did the 100ft breakaways - yes I was there and these boys yes are experienced base jumpers, but they were also tickling the Lions balls.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 0 #94 April 5, 2007 Dave, Because of the hand tack to ensure the hook stays set. Most of the energy from the spring is exhausted at the end of the 5’. In a lower speed campy transfer, you would now be relying on the drag of the reserve PC from air speed to release the skyhook. I have tested and tested this many times and it is usually 18-20 lbs and can go + that. I can easily see it towing the reserve PC in a canopy transfer attempt. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #95 April 6, 2007 It takes a force to slow any mass, for the PC in a canopy transfer what force overcomes the momentum from the spring and the sustaining force from the prevailing airspeed (below that speed) + gravity after 5 feet of bridle? Even a small amount of momentum on the PC could produce a significant impulse force provided the system isn't too elastic and doesn't flex too much/quickly. I think this deserves to be tested in the air, not a bench. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 0 #96 April 6, 2007 Dorbie, You would hope, but I have watched to many reserve PC’s towed for far to long in canopy transfers from the 70’s and 80’s to know just what little force is required to tow it. Some had round reserves with short bridles and some ram airs with long bridles. I have seen them both towed. That’s where my data comes from and I trust it. I was building and designing rigs back then as well and yes, we had a lot to learn before getting it right, some more than others. A canopy transfer situation is a place now one should ever find themselves. Jeff Edited to add: One of the best transfers I remember was in Z-hills. The jumper wasn’t low, but had a bad line over and pulled his reserve. We watched the PC shoot out about 5’ and just laid out there a long while. Then do to his rate of decent, we watched his reserve PC go and wrap up in the lines. That’s when he cutaway and good thing he had square reserve w/ freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #97 April 6, 2007 Quotewe watched his reserve PC go and wrap up in the lines. That’s when he cutaway and good thing he had square reserve w/ freebag. Sounds like an improvised skyhook! People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #98 April 6, 2007 QuoteA canopy transfer situation is a place no one should ever find themselves. Too true.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 0 #99 April 6, 2007 We did expect it to get very ugly until he cutaway. And yes, I guess you could consider it a main assisted reserve deployment. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #100 April 7, 2007 QuoteQuotewe watched his reserve PC go and wrap up in the lines. That’s when he cutaway and good thing he had square reserve w/ freebag. Sounds like an improvised skyhook! Exactly what I thought . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
