Need canopy selection advice - leaving accuracy jumping

[mircan 0]

Hi. I need advice about canopy selection. I have little under 400 jumps, all with big accuracy canopies, para-foil and alike (30 jumps with round one) and want to buy complete rig for myself. I just started camera flying and current gear that i`m using isn`t good enough to bring me back from long spots. I especially need advice regarding canopy size for my experience level. So far I jumped "classic" accuracy with consistent tuffet landings and good accuracy canopy skills, but i don`t want to jump this discipline any longer (at least not on regular basis). Never jumped with faster/smaller canopy.
I`m on a budget, buying used rig that must last for couple of years. My exit weight is about 205 lbs.
I have searched the forums but was unable to find any similar post, i.e. most of the "canopy choosing" advice are given to beginners or people who are downsizing.

mircan

dudeist skydiver #42

[BillyVance 34]

You could start with anywhere from a 1:1 to a 1.2:1 wingloading at your experience level, say try a Triathlon 190, 210 or 230, or PD Spectre of similar sizes. You might want to buy used at first, until you get comfortable with what you want, as you may decide to downsize from the first size you pick. There's lots of info on here to search through.

Edited to add: because you have used accuracy canopies, I suggested 7 cell square canopies as they tend to fly conservatively and performs not all that differently from what you're used to. You'll still be able to land where you want to and cut through the wind better.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[L.O. 0]

The question should be asked of someone who has seen you jump. We here on the net, can give general ideas on the norm, the average, but each individual is so very different.

The average person should demo the h%^l out of anything he can get his paws on. It's the only way to know for "you"

The fact that you have flown a accuracy canopy so much, gives you an advantage in my opinion. flying accuracy has, most likely given you a great deal of skill to grow with.

I started out doing a lot of CReW and the landing from each was accuracy. 220 7-cell F-111. when I moved to my first fast canopy I found it was much easier for me then most, because I understood how a conopy flys. (Thats what I think anyway).

That said, I would bet you will end up someplace between135 and 190. You gave few details on what you intend to do with the canopy. Do you want to swoop, are you just wanting an all-around?

190 is a great size for an all around canopy. Stable, forgiving and fun. A 170 is still all these but less forgiving and a little more fun. A 150 is super fun but much less forgiving. Then the 135, probably to fast to much to far.

These ideas could possibly be all wrong for you. We don't know you and you should take anything you get here and ask someone you trust to make an accurate assessment. Good luck.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[mircan 0]

Whoa, that was a quick answer. Of course, thanks for the info. It seems that you confirmed my initial opinion. I figured size about 190, but I was afraid not to go to small.
I`m not sure about the size for the non-ZP canopies (like PD 9-cell). It seems that for the same exit weight these canopies are larger than ZP.
I will try as much different canopies as I can, but in the country where I live now there is not much of a choice.
Also, I`m buying used gear so that limits the options.
One question: is there a big difference in flying 7-cell, opposing to 9-cell (if I can only find used 9-cell canopy here)?

dudeist skydiver #42

[mircan 0]

I need all-around canopy. By the time i get to swoop i`ll probably buy another. Size around 190 because I figure I`m not getting any lighter. 170sqft is maybe enough for now but two-three years from now when I add few pounds more under my belt... Correct me if I`m wrong.
Any idea on ZP/non-ZP and some widespread/popular model?

dudeist skydiver #42

[L.O. 0]

7-cells have less forward speed. higher decent rate and generally more on heading opennings. the 7-cell would be easier for you to transition to since you know how they respond.

9-cells are awesome but they do require a little more precision from the pilot. They fly faster and recover slower then the same size 7-cell (in most cases).

I don't know Europe, so I don't know canopies over there.

over here I would say Sabre 2, Safire, Silohette, Tri-athlon, Sabre 1, spectre. Many more

I wouldn't mess with a non ZP canopy. F-111 simply can't compare in the long run to a ZP.

As long as you can cover the shipping, I would say your options are not limited at all. Just look here, just about every canopy you could want (and some you don't).

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[BillyVance 34]

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One question: is there a big difference in flying 7-cell, opposing to 9-cell (if I can only find used 9-cell canopy here)?

9 cells have a flatter glide ratio than 7 cells. You'll sink more under a 7 cell, however, a 7 cell will help you better if you find yourself in a bad spot and need to get down safely. On the other hand, 9 cells will help better with getting you back from a long spot, you just don't really want to land off in a small clearing with it. At least I don't.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[skybytch 259]

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Any idea on ZP/non-ZP and some widespread/popular model?

ZP. Definitely.

This is far from a complete list, but here are a few canopies that are suitable for someone wanting an "all around" canopy. Any of these at a wingloading of 1.0-1.2 should keep someone who doesn't want to swoop happy for quite some time.

7 cells - PD Spectre, Aerodyne Triathlon (you can find good deals on older used ones)

9 cells - PD Silhouette (this is a "hybrid" - zp top skin, rest of canopy F111; easier to pack than an all zp canopy), PD Sabre (probably not the best choice for camera flying but they are everywhere and you can find them cheap used), PD Sabre2, Icarus Safire (be aware that sizing is different on these; a "149" is about equivalent to a 135 from other manufacturers), Icarus Safire2 (updated Safire, sizing is the same as other manufacturers), Aerodyne Pilot.

[jimmytavino 16]

I came up through the sport, also with a huge emphasis on accuracy....I shot downwind accuracy for years with a French Papillon ( high performance round ) but that was way back when..

then owned clouds, a parafoil 252, and then put 1,100 jumps on a 240 Challenger...

You Are correct !!!! about not always getting back from long spots..... it was ONLY when THAT happened, that i would have a chance to shoot an accuracy final, and take advantage of the 'sinking' abilities of such canopies...

I too fly camera, ( the last 12 years), and I weigh right around 200 pounds... About 5 years ago, I began flying a PD Spectre 210........ It is a great canopy for a number of reasons..and i like it alot.

Some say it opens slow, but that also means it opens softly,,, ( about 99% of the time)...
It has good forward speed at 1:1 wingloading and it allows for a good flare and nice landing when in the hands of a confident pilot...
Unlike some elliptical mains, the spectre opens square and solid most all the time,,,, the likelihood of a spinner at opening is very low. This is important for a camera person with a loaded helmet...

You may want to raise your pull altitude a few hundred feet, and if you are videoing tandems or AFF, no harm in pulling, shortly after you 'subject' deploys..
Do you flat pack your accuracy canopies?? or pro pack them.... I ask, because the Spectre which I own DOES have packing tabs on it,,, and Not sure, but I think they are still built that way, just in case you DO flat pack...

If you are used to doing a lot of hop and Pops, to just shoot accuracy, maybe take it a couple of hundred meters higher, for exit, to allow for the normal snivel which may or may not be greater, when deploying non terminal....

you'll be pleased with the smaller pack volume than you are used to,,, and with a little practice, you'll still be able to zero in on the tuffet....
Only now , instead of a steep, deep brakes approach, shift your focus to hanging back a bit more, and FLYING to the pit, and then settling in, as you go through your flare......
However,,,,for the serious dead center shots,,,,break out the foil.
good luck

jimmy

[billvon 2,391]

>Any idea on ZP/non-ZP and some widespread/popular model?

ZP or hybrid. The Pilot and Silhouette are hybrids; part F111 and part ZP. They last as long and are as easy to pack.

For suggestions, I'd go with a Silhouette, Safire2 or Pilot. They all open nicely and give you a decent amount of glide. They're 9 cells, which is what most people use nowadays.

[trigger 0]

I keep recommending this one: Icarus Safire 1.
Soft openings,superb glide and suitable for novice to expert canopy pilots alike. Should be able to get a very good deal on a secondhand one to

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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ZP or hybrid. The Pilot and Silhouette are hybrids; part F111 and part ZP. They last as long and are as easy to pack.

Pilot has low-cf ribs only.

[mircan 0]

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As long as you can cover the shipping, I would say your options are not limited at all.

Shipping an item such as parachute from US/Canada, or from anywhere in the world, to the south-east Europe is quite expensive - approx 150 to 200+ euro + taxes and that is if I`m lucky (I paid 65 euro just for sending AAD to maintenance). So that is a big issue when buying on a budget.
I`ll probably look for it here or in the neighboring countries and smuggle it across border . That is why I asked for some wide-spread-time-proven model, greater chance of finding it.
Second option is that one of my friends that lives in US buy it for me and bring it here when he come to visit (but that is so much fuss, don`t you think?).

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Do you flat pack your accuracy canopies?? or pro pack them.... I ask, because the Spectre which I own DOES have packing tabs on it,,, and Not sure, but I think they are still built that way, just in case you DO flat pack...

In fact I do ONLY flat pack (without packing tabs) and I haven`t learned PRO pack yet (but I can pack a round canopy in 10 minutes though
Is it good idea to flat pack 190sqft ZP? Or should I learn PRO pack first? I know this is an off topic, but just yes or no would do.

dudeist skydiver #42

[dragon2 0]

You could always get a safire from spain, the spain-made ones are better anyway. For more local models, the PdF Electra might be a nice canopy for you (also a ZP/F111 hybrid canopy if I'm not mistaken, at least it predecessor was - do not buy a merit!), but I like pilot/safire/spectre better myself.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[wmw999 2,119]

I jumped my 220 when I got back into skydiving after a long layoff, and then eventually bought different gear with a smaller main. So it's similar.

Based on my experience, yes, demo a whole lot. But before you start demo-ing, spend a few days borrowing gear so that you can downsize gradually, instead of jumping a big accuracy canopy one jumjp, and a 1.2-loaded 190 the next. That's a big change in one jump.

You want to be able to evaluate canopies honestly, and if you're concerned about flying it because it's so unfamiliar, you won't be able to do that.

That said, you'll probably find plenty of challenge in a 1.1-1.2 loaded canopy. I do find a 7-cell to feel more normal than a 9-cell, but that might just be me.

Good luck.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 3]

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>Any idea on ZP/non-ZP and some widespread/popular model?

ZP or hybrid. The Pilot and Silhouette are hybrids; part F111 and part ZP. They last as long and are as easy to pack.

For suggestions, I'd go with a Silhouette, Safire2 or Pilot. They all open nicely and give you a decent amount of glide. They're 9 cells, which is what most people use nowadays.

Can't say enough good about the Silhouette; I'm jumping both a 190 and a 210, and enjoy them very much. I tried Spectre, Sabre2, and a very used Safire, and settled on the Silhouette. Then later found out it's the preferred canopy for military use.
With 15lbs of camera gear on, it's nice and soft, but also has a very responsive feel (as though I'd know, flying big boats).

[bob.dino 0]

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Based on my experience, yes, demo a whole lot.

I think I can state quite confidently that the options for demoing canopies in Banjaluka are quite limited. Or, if you will, nonexistent.

mircan: As others have said, you'll most likely be happy with any of Safire2, Pilot, Spectre, Sabre2 in a suitable size. There may be others that would suit; I'm not too familiar with what's available in SE Europe.

[mircan 0]

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I think I can state quite confidently that the options for demoing canopies in Banjaluka are quite limited. Or, if you will, nonexistent.

You got that right . Actually, the first "non accuracy" canopy in Banjaluka DZ was bought last december by one of our men (though he needs to gain more experience to jump with it safely). In Banjaluka we have only bought new student chutes (couple of navigator, skymaster, equinox). I jumped with it, but can`t say that it was much different than parafoil. Slow, low toggle pressure, they glide way better though, and that`s it.

Lucky for me, I now live in Belgrade-Serbia where the situation is a little better, so I can actually try out a couple of canopies. Variety of models here isn`t that great, but I can still try to get used to jump with smaller and faster ones.

dudeist skydiver #42

[mircan 0]

So let`s summarize:
- ZP (or hybrid) canopy,
- ~190sqft, 9-cell I don`t think that there are much used 7-cell ZP-s in this country that I can get my hands on and try before buying (people here began to jump non-accuracy canopies just few years ago).
- As for the models: silhouette, spectre, pilot, saphire, sabre, triathlon... (what ever is available to me here).

I think that`s about it. If anybody has something to add...

dudeist skydiver #42

[phoenixlpr 0]

Check out Paratech, Basik and PerformanceVariable canopies too.

[beezyshaw 0]

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...9-cells are awesome but they do require a little more precision from the pilot. They fly faster and recover slower then the same size 7-cell (in most cases)...

Actually, Todd, in most cases the recovery arc of a nine cell will be faster than an equally loaded seven cell. The higher aspect ratio of the nine cell will generally plane out faster than a seven cell of the same size. Now of course canopies like Katana (which are built specifically to have a long dive/recovery) are the exception, but an example would be a Safire vs Omega; the Omega will not recover to level flight as quickly as the Safire. And an EXTreme FX will have a longer recovery than the same size VX will.

[3331 108]

This is the best all around canopy I've ever jumped.

http://www.jumpshack.com/firebolt.htm

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[mircan 0]

Thanks you all. You have been very informative. Remember my face, if we meet sometime I`m buying beer.

dudeist skydiver #42