gontleman 0 #1 February 11, 2007 Watching the PIA video with Bill Booth it would seem that the biggest improvement he showed off was the magnetic riser covers. My question is two-fold. When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"? Would it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #2 February 11, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVRSIicQDkYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #3 February 11, 2007 Bill said it was not possible (or maybe he said "unlikely") to retrofit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #4 February 11, 2007 Actually there is going to be a retrofit available for sigmas. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 February 11, 2007 QuoteWhen could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"? When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gontleman 0 #6 February 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"? When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.Maybe I'm misreading your response. I'm under the impression that the magnetic covers are to compensate for the problem of riser covers NOT opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #7 February 11, 2007 It sounds like velcro that doesn't wear out. Most of the new innovations in the last 10 years seem to be a mad rush to accomodate the freeflyers and swoopers that keep inventing new ways to kill themselves. In days gone by the traditional way to die was because the parachute did not open. Now, we die AFTER the parachute opens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #8 February 11, 2007 QuoteWhen no one can make a riser cover that stays closed. An issue that the magnetic covers also addresses is tuck tab riser covers not coming open properly. Velcro riser covers come open with about 5 lbs of force - tuck tab riser covers, because of their high level of security (on most rigs) can take much more, or - even worse - release asymmetrically. There is a retrofit kit for the Sigma; I'm not sure about sport or student containers.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #9 February 11, 2007 QuoteWatching the PIA video with Bill Booth it would seem that the biggest improvement he showed off was the magnetic riser covers. My question is two-fold. When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"? Would it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them? RWS licenced the technology so I suppose anyone could. I hope it does become a standard - never liked tuck tabs.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #10 February 11, 2007 QuoteWould it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them? I PM'd Mr. Booth and asked him that question. His reply was that it was possible, but that it wasn't "as clean" as the factory original. He said they were working on making it better.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #11 February 11, 2007 I left my vector 3 at the UPT rigging shop in deland a couple weeks ago to get the riser covers replaced (which they're doing for free, under warranty, on a 3 year old rig). Had a problem with the stiffener in the riser covers cracking. Anyway, I aksed about getting magnetic riser covers instead and was told it would require building a whole new yoke... not really a viable option. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #12 February 11, 2007 Quote RWS licenced the technology so I suppose anyone could. I hope it does become a standard - never liked tuck tabs.... rm Here is the patent http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=atair&s2=magnet&OS=atair+AND+magnet&RS=atair+AND+magnet The "inventor" is Daniel Preston, Atair Aerospace. The abstract is: QuoteA fastening system particularly suited for removably securing a first component of a parachute system to a second component. The fastening system includes a first and at least a second magnetic element secured to the first and second components of the parachute system. At least the first magnetic element is adapted to create a magnetic field that attracts the second magnetic element. In the preferred embodiment, both the first and second create magnetic fields which attract each other and may include permanent magnets or temporary magnets. Alternatively, the magnetic elements may include electromagnets connected to a power source. Optionally, a power controller adjusts the strength of the magnetic force generated by the magnetic elements. So, it appears that the patent holder patented the idea of using magnets anywhere in a parachute system. Imagine using a magnet to hold in a hook knife... I just made that up, but it is under the patent... I kind of feel Atair went a little far patenting the use of magnetic force in skydiving equipment instead of patenting a specific design. This patent appears not to have any of the R&D work. Meaning, it is my understanding Mr. Booth's team had to do all the work, such as testing which magnets are too strong or not strong enough - both for the application, and for side effects such as altering other equipment or avionics of the aircraft. So, this opens a whole new ethical question in our world... Manufacture #2 comes out. Tears open a RWS rig and gets the spec on the magnets Mr. Booth used. Then they copy the pattern of fabric (at least mostly). Who should the royalties go to??? Well, it appears Atair. This is why I am a 100% RWS, oops, I mean UPT, fan. Sure, Mr. Booth did not invent everything, but the stuff he did invent seems to be on almost every rig out there today. The problem with other companies patenting blanket ideas in our small market is that it removes the motivation for creative people like Mr. Booth to come up with new ideas if he cannot earn royalties to pay for his R&D and testing... Imagine if someone patented the idea of using "metal rings" in skydiving before Mr. Booth had the three ring idea... It was not the rings, but the design that made them work, that was innovative... My personal beef.... I honestly don't know (and shouldn't really know) the behind the scene finances and contracts with everyone involved. Atair, if ethical, would share the winnings with Mr. Booth since he made the Atair patent work.... EDIT... P.S. Atair patented the idea of using magnets to hold toggles to risers too, in the fine print, filed in 2006. Part of patent law requires the design not to be implemented by someone else before the patent is filed... Since my Gin Bolero Paraglider had magnetic toggles in 1999, this is not a new idea, and anyone who wishes to implement this in our parachutes, should not have to pay royalties because of previous use and design in the market place... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #13 February 11, 2007 >When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed. That's not the problem Bill was trying to solve. Magnetic riser covers: 1) open reliably and easily; this may reduce the incidents of rogue openings that cause injury 2) will re-close themselves if they are accidentally opened (say on exit due to incidental contact) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gontleman 0 #14 February 11, 2007 As far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 35 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #15 February 11, 2007 QuoteIt sounds like Velcro that doesn't wear out. No so. It will be interesting to see how Bill's new "Magnetic Riser Covers" fair over time. Not that it should surprise someone that rigs need some periodic maintenance from time to time... i.e. Velcro wears out and needs to be replaced... i.e. The plastic in tuck-tabs sometimes cracks and needs to be replaced... permanent magnets can loose their magnetism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyblu3 0 #16 February 11, 2007 I don't know much about these magnets other than what I saw on the PIA interview video. However, what crosses my mind is the following: imagine an otter load full of jumpers all wearing rigs with magnetic riser covers. How will that affect the avionics, Cypres's, pacemakers, etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #17 February 11, 2007 cant imagine it'll do the magnetic compass any good, the pilot will wonder why hes always going south! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #18 February 11, 2007 These, I was told by Bill, will not lose their magneism. They are rare earth magnets, not metal ones. They are basically powder held together by epoxy and are said to hold their magnetic power for the life of the magnet. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gontleman 0 #19 February 11, 2007 QuoteI don't know much about these magnets other than what I saw on the PIA interview video. However, what crosses my mind is the following: imagine an otter load full of jumpers all wearing rigs with magnetic riser covers. How will that affect the avionics, Cypres's, pacemakers, etc.. Bill Booth addresses the Cypres concern as well as pacemakers. Supposedly he had the riser covers at a DZ where a man with a pacemaker took them and put them right next to his pacemaker and suffered no ill effects. I forget what all was said regarding the Cypres. If it won't mess with a pacemaker when a guy puts it as close to his as possible... I doubt it will mess with avionics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #20 February 11, 2007 QuoteAs far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 80 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it. 35 gauss magnets for the covers. 80 gauss: Bill's quote for screwing up a credit card from the Mythbusters. DSE's quote was 70+ gauss to screw up the tape."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gontleman 0 #21 February 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteAs far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 80 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it. 35 gauss magnets for the covers. 80 gauss: Bill's quote for screwing up a credit card from the Mythbusters. DSE's quote was 70+ gauss to screw up the tape.Knew I should have re-watched it as I was typing That was just the number that stuck in my head. Good save Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GraficO 0 #22 February 11, 2007 ok... pacemakers, and AADs aside... what about cameras? High powered magnets like that would erase DV tape faster than greased moose poop. Can't exactly just leave your camera helmet anywhere near your magnet-rig... I'm just posing the scneario....GraficO "A Mind is a terrible thing to taste." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #23 February 11, 2007 to be fair i think mr booth will have thought these things through at some point in the process of r&d. i am intrigued more as to why these side effects dont occur as opposed to worrying if they will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #24 February 11, 2007 Watch the video posted in the PIA Video thread in General Skydiving forum. ===> Here People may have thought about that one already. :)My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GraficO 0 #25 February 11, 2007 personally I've never had a problem with tuck tabs and I don't think I would order magnetized riser covers just because they're the new poop. My Infinity rigs have done just fine without them. Bill V's comments about hem self-adhereing in a nudge makes sense... but as a camera guy... I don't even want to think about magnets around my cameras in any configuration. I saw Bill at PIA and was more intrigued by his yoke-mudflap padding config than his magnetsGraficO "A Mind is a terrible thing to taste." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
