Sky Diving Helmets and DOT

[iambeav2 0]

Just something that urks me...Not meaning any humor out of this, but wearing a Bonehead, Z1, Oxygn when you "bounce" won't do a hell of a whole lot for your life. But that helmet might do some good come a midair collision or a tree or what not...buy WHY can you not wear these helmets for DOT reasons? Meaning why ain't they DOT certified? I don't own or even ride a bike, but this is just one of those things when you sit down and think..."How come..."

...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!

[IanHarrop 37]

My answer is really only speculation...

Back in the day we used to wear motorcycle helmets. I had my first name painted on the front and a Canadian flag

Such helmets were heavy and bulky as compared to the helmets of today. Since the old days other things were popular, frap hats (never had one - they were too much $$$ for me) and hockey helmets (mine was red with a Paralert on the back). Eventually hard helmets were designed for skydiving, with pockets for audibles and flat sides for camera mounts.

To get the DOT rating might require a return to things more like motorcycle helmets

Just my thoughts...

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[DSE 3]

I've been told by more than one helmet manufacturer that obtaining a DOT rating isn't desirable because of
~cost
~liability (in the event of a failure to protect)
~necessity

That said, I've twice worn my Mindwarp on a motorcycle in Nevada, given that they have helmet laws in Nevada. I didn't see the sense in buying yet another helmet.
I was pulled over for speeding, and the motorcycle cop didn't blink an eye at my helmet.
I can't help but wonder if all those fancy chrome and custom helmets you see on the streets are DOT approved?

[iambeav2 0]

Yeah, Well i know the nazi caps ain't DOT approved, and if i ever rode a bike, I'd either use my Mamba or Pimpdaddy. No need in spending MORE money for a helmet that is lighter and is comfy for winds >120mph :-). I geuss it's just a peculiar thing to me...why skydiving helmets aren't DOT rated...I mean tech. that cop coulda docked you for having a helmet not DOT approved, but w/e. Lol.

Blue Skies.

...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!

[PhreeZone 14]

To be DOT rated you actually have to prove that in certian predefined situations the helmet actually protects and has methods in it to absorv energey before the brain recieves it in the crash.

You CAN buy a DOT approved helmet, a Protec. Every other skydiving helmet will do nothing to absorb an impact and only serves to keep your face looking decent for the funeral.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[iambeav2 0]

Hm, ok, that works. Thanks!!

...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!

[teason 0]

Shorty helmets aside, the full face motorcycle helmet and large open face helmets are designed to brake your collarbones on a headon impact to protect your spine. Skydiving helmets won't do that and your neck would be crunchy jello (if you've ever felt it, it's something you never forget) They also are designed from materials that absorb certain amounts of shock, the helmet is essentially designed to brake.

There have been so many motorcycle accidents that public policy demanded that research be put into the design of materials and structure and laws be passed on compliance.

Skydiving helmets are driven by form, not function and to Whuffos, the skydivers don't die from preventable head injuries, they die from parachutes not working ergo no regulation on design and composites beyond what looks cool and is light weight.

By the way, Skydivers do die from preventable head trauma, I've lost a couple friends that way. I can say without o doubt that if one of them had worm a helmet that had the same impact resistance of a motorcycle helmet, he would still be with us.

Also, just as a helmet won't help on a bounce, a helmet also doesn't help when you go under the car that hits you or when you hit the ditch with such force that your brain is heavily contused when it hits the inside of your skull.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[pilotdave 0]

DOT ratings would mean nothing for a skydiving helmet, and mean very little to a motorcycle helmet. The desirable attributes of a helmet depend on what you're doing... which is why we don't skydive with motorcycle helmets and it'd be pretty useless to wear a skydiving helmet on a motorcycle.

I once visited a US Army helmet testing lab... mostly helicopter pilot helmets, but they run tests on pretty much every type of helmet. They showed some comparisons of motorcycle helmets vs helicopter pilot helmets. Totally different uses, totally different types of protection.

I'd LOVE to see a comparison of skydiving helmets though. I really think a lot of them would fail any kind of testing miserably... A hard hit to a poorly placed rivet or bolt might concentrate the load to one point, making the hit worse. Would be really interesting to compare materials too...

Dave

[payback462 0]

i belive that pro-tec does not sell dot/snell m2005 approved helmets.

they DO however sell ASTM 2040, CE EN 1385, CPSC approved ,ASTM F-1492 helmets for snow, watersports, bike, and skate respectively.

[D22369 0]

DOT ratings would mean nothing for a skydiving helmet, and mean very little to a motorcycle helmet. ***


actually not true, the outer shell of a helmet is designed to fracture and spread the impact over a larger area of the inner liner and keep the impact from hitting a single point of the skull.


To get the dot rating The Department of Transportation (DOT) rates motorcycle helmets. The rating is based on dropping the helmet containing a simulated head from a height of 10 feet. The "head" must receive no more than 400 Gs over a prescribed dwell time


obviously a helmet is useless if you meet the ground without a parachute over your head, but for a high performance landing gone bad, a motorcycle helmet would afford much greater protection for the brain than your typical skydiving helmet.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[pilotdave 0]

Well, that's true about high performance landing accidents... that's much more like a motorcycle accident than what I was thinking of.

Dave

[D22369 0]

I also would love to see a comparison of the skydiving helmets.... I would bet money they would all prove to be basically worthless to anything other than riserslaps...
I believe a protec to be far superior than any others used in skydiving.


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

To get the dot rating The Department of Transportation (DOT) rates motorcycle helmets. The rating is based on dropping the helmet containing a simulated head from a height of 10 feet. The "head" must receive no more than 400 Gs over a prescribed dwell time

Not true. DOT certification means absolutely nothing.

"DOT Standards
The DOT rating simply indicates that a manufacturer believes that its helmet meets the basic DOT standards, without any actual testing on the helmets themselves. In that sense, DOT ratings are fairly easy to come by, and virtually anybody can make and sell a helmet with a DOT sticker.

Fortunately, DOT personnel periodically buys helmets and sends them to independent labs for testing to assure that they actually do meet the standard. The results are posted on the NHTSA website in a pass/fail form. You might be surprised to learn that more than half of all helmets recently tested with the DOT sticker on them actually failed DOT's lab tests"

Build a helmet, slap a DOT sticker on it and you are in business.

Derek

[D22369 0]

Build a helmet, slap a DOT sticker on it and you are in business.

***


ooo, I stand corrected

edit to add though : even a poorly made motorcycle helmet would provide superior protection than a lightly padded skydiving helmet just by the amount of inner padding... *my opinion only *

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Scary, hey? I did some research when I bought my CBR600RR. SNELL helmets must actually be tested and pass in order to get the certification. A DOT sticker is kinda like a USPA GM DZ. People think it means something, but it really doesn't mean anything at all.

Derek

[D22369 0]

very scary!!!

but now I understand why our helmets had to be snell approved to dragrace with..

lol, I never made the connection


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[pilotdave 0]

I've been kicked in the face, and recently had a friend fall and "slip n' slide" out of a CASA... she got some major road rash on her Z1, and did damage to a riser and chest strap. It would have been UGLY if she was wearing a protec. Next day she got kicked on exit and cracked her visor. Again, the full face probably saved her from injury. Same jump, a guy with an open face got kicked in the mouth and was bleeding in freefall (nothing major).

The protec might offer the best head protection (though we haven't seen any comparative testing to prove that), but a full face can provide better protection from less serious impacts and scrapes.

Dave

[jeremy_o 0]

Yup,
I've been kicked in the face too.. We were keeping the formation "tight"

Either way, I don't want my fullface DOT approved, no need. I wear my fullface merely for slight protection from people's feet or to hope that it would keep me consicious during a botched exit or something else unforeseen.

http://planetskydive.net/ - An online aggregation of skydiver's blogs.

[za_skydiver 0]

Back of my head made pretty hard contact with the ground wearing a Factory diver. Still convinced to this day, that it saved my life. Even though i was in a coma for 2 and a bit weeks...

Some dream of flying, i live the dream...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Scary, hey? I did some research when I bought my CBR600RR. SNELL helmets must actually be tested and pass in order to get the certification. A DOT sticker is kinda like a USPA GM DZ. People think it means something, but it really doesn't mean anything at all.

Yet the absence of the snell sticker may only mean that they didn't want to pay the license fee. (see THX Select on mid priced stereo receivers) And some brands sell a DOT model and a Snell model that are the same.

Also good to note that Snell is a very different standard. More stringent in most ways, perhaps less effective in others.

Setting a standard test for skydiving would be difficult - what sort of impacts would you prioritize? Tumbling landings, hitting trees, freefall collisions with other jumpers?

[BIGUN 1,049]

Quote

I've been kicked in the face, and recently had a friend fall and "slip n' slide" out of a CASA... she got some major road rash on her Z1, and did damage to a riser and chest strap. It would have been UGLY if she was wearing a protec. Next day she got kicked on exit and cracked her visor. Again, the full face probably saved her from injury. Same jump, a guy with an open face got kicked in the mouth and was bleeding in freefall (nothing major).

The protec might offer the best head protection (though we haven't seen any comparative testing to prove that), but a full face can provide better protection from less serious impacts and scrapes.

Three years ago this month, Doc was in the C-182 that crashed in Tulsa. She was ejected from the plane on impact. As she was exiting the pilot's door (sitting behind the pilot), the whole right side of her Z1 hit the door frame. She continued to bounce along the ground (next to the continuing crash) until both came to a stop. She broke several vertebrae and her foot. No head injuries.

If she hadn't been wearing the helmet the entire right side of her face would have damaged, she would have had serious head injuries and she would have probably required reconstructive surgery. She doesn't wear it since the right side was trashed, but takes it with her to the DZ to show people why they should wear their helmet during takeoff.

If you've ever heard flyangel2 go off on someone for not wearing their helmet; it pales in comparison to the thrashing and demonstrated helmet that Doc shows.

And, God bless Mirage. When they heard about LifeFlite cutting her rig webbing up to get it off her... they rebuilt it for her for practically little more than shipping charges.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skycat 0]

Quote

If you've ever heard flyangel2 go off on someone for not wearing their helmet;

Not just in skydiving, if your ski, snowboard, ride a motorcycle, well pretty much do anything she will get on your butt about wearing a helmet, as well as goggles instead of sunglasses. (We love you for it Mary. )

Fly it like you stole it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Yet the absence of the snell sticker may only mean that they didn't want to pay the license fee. (see THX Select on mid priced stereo receivers) And some brands sell a DOT model and a Snell model that are the same.

Sure, but a DOT sticker does not tell you if the helmets meets any standards or was even tested.

Quote

Also good to note that Snell is a very different standard. More stringent in most ways, perhaps less effective in others.

From: http://www.smf.org/articles/dot.html

“In fact, Snell certified helmets do meet DOT. If you want to be sure that your helmet meets the DOT standard, get a Snell certified helmet. Manufacturers apply for and earn Snell certification because they care about quality. These are the very manufacturers for whom the honor system works. A Snell sticker is your best assurance that the helmet meets both Snell and DOT. Without our sticker, it's purely a gamble that the helmet meets any standard at all.”

Quote

Setting a standard test for skydiving would be difficult - what sort of impacts would you prioritize? Tumbling landings, hitting trees, freefall collisions with other jumpers?

I didn’t say they should be tested or a standard set. I was just clearing up the myth that the DOT certification actually means something.

I think skydiving helmet manufacturers realize that skydivers, as a group, won’t pay for safety, they pay for cool. Skydivers pay big bucks for helmets now without the standard. Establishing a standard, testing, and designing helmets that meet that standard would be huge waste of time and money for them.

Derek

[iambeav2 0]

I'm new, so this isn't a "well why the hell can't I" but this is a " I wear sunglasses and haven't been told otherwise". I own a mamba and a pimpdaddy, and on beautiful, low wind days, I wear the open face w/ sunglasses. Why do you advise ONLY goggles and not sunglasses? Thanks in advance for helping me learn.

...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!

[skycat 0]

Mind you this is more for snowboarding/skiing, but I believe the concept is the same for a landing crash. Mary used to be ski patrol and someone crashed skiing 1st hit dislodged the sunglasses, 2nd hit the arm of the sunglasses when through his eye.

So I always wear goggles, snowboarding or skydiving, well actually I wear a full face skydiving, but if I wear an open face again I'll wear goggles.

Fly it like you stole it!